Convince me to buy a BDP-1...

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redbook

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Re: Convince me to buy a BDP-1...
« Reply #20 on: 3 Jun 2012, 05:50 pm »
 Yes , I agree with that fully :rock:

zybar

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Re: Convince me to buy a BDP-1...
« Reply #21 on: 3 Jun 2012, 06:20 pm »
Just to be clear...the majority of my almost 7000 album collection is regular redbook (16/44) recordings.  While a well recorded hi-rez recording sounds a good deal better to my ears, what sold me on the BDP-1 was how well it played a normal cd (i.e. best I have heard in my system).

George

jaxwired

Re: Convince me to buy a BDP-1...
« Reply #22 on: 3 Jun 2012, 06:55 pm »
Will it or will it not play ALAC (apple lossless)?

brucek

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Re: Convince me to buy a BDP-1...
« Reply #23 on: 3 Jun 2012, 07:51 pm »
Quote from: spinner
In my case the CD reigns.
Quote from: SoundGame
I believe the elimination of the optical source path and all the negative variable associated with it is a key to the BDP-1's improvement over a CDP

I don't know what to think about this. I have a fairly good CD player (Arcam Alpha 9) that feeds my Bryston SP2 analog bypass into a Bryston amp and then into ProAc Response 3.8 loudspeakers. Believe me, it sounds pretty good.

If I rip a CD using my desktop computer and its $29 CD drive into FLAC format so the music has been subjected to the optical source path and all the negative variable associated with it, then the claim is that the BDP will now clean all this up and sound better than my CD player?

I've tossed around getting a BDP, but logic tells me it wouldn't sound as good as CD.

On my main system I play all my ripped files with a high-end laptop feeding an external soundcard (Tascam US-144MKII) into a Bryston SP2 bypass. It's OK.

On my second system I have an M-Audio Audiophile 2496 soundcard that feeds a receiver. It's also OK.
Neither beat my CD player on the main system.

Someday I may have to give a BDP a test and see what it can do. I have no doubt it can do wonders with a store-bought Hi-rez file, but how can it make all my ripped CD's sound better than CD when they're ripped with a computer?

brucek

Diamond Dog

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Re: Convince me to buy a BDP-1...
« Reply #24 on: 3 Jun 2012, 09:05 pm »

If I rip a CD using my desktop computer and its $29 CD drive into FLAC format so the music has been subjected to the optical source path and all the negative variable associated with it, then the claim is that the BDP will now clean all this up and sound better than my CD player?

I've tossed around getting a BDP, but logic tells me it wouldn't sound as good as CD.

Someday I may have to give a BDP a test and see what it can do. I have no doubt it can do wonders with a store-bought Hi-rez file, but how can it make all my ripped CD's sound better than CD when they're ripped with a computer?

brucek

 :eyebrows:
The man makes an interesting proposition.
Methinks the rebuttal could be interesting as well...

Brucek, that Alpha 9 with the ring DAC is indeed a pretty good-sounding CDP. I've also tossed around the notion of a BDP and your questions have crossed my mind, too.
As to throwing away my CDP, in my case that would be like tossing the caber... :green:

D.D.


PRELUDE

Re: Convince me to buy a BDP-1...
« Reply #25 on: 3 Jun 2012, 09:20 pm »
Jaxwired,
I do not think any one of us could convince you to buy it or not we can only share experience or advise.
But I see that Brystony is nice enough to demo the BDP for you and that could be the best way to start.
What is your most favorite music genre?
Here is a list of suppliers of high resolution music files and you can always try a short part of each song before you buy it.
http://www.auraliti.com/High_Res_Content.html

ricko01

Re: Convince me to buy a BDP-1...
« Reply #26 on: 3 Jun 2012, 09:50 pm »
If I rip a CD using my desktop computer and its $29 CD drive into FLAC format so the music has been subjected to the optical source path and all the negative variable associated with it, then the claim is that the BDP will now clean all this up and sound better than my CD player?

The logic behind a ripped CD , played back by some device,  being better is that CD playback on a CD player is "real time" and if there are issues with the physical CD during playback the CD player has limited time (milliseconds) to decide how to deal with it. There is also jitter introduced during playback by the CD having to be spun at varying speeds during playback.

When you rip a CD, the ripper can do massive amounts of error detection/correction that isnt "in band" (ie doesnt happen during playback).. so the quality of the PC drive doesnt really matter (though some people believe that some drives are better).

Then once you have this perfect rip, the playback doesnt involve jitter related to "spinning the CD"

Peter

PS: I spin Vinyl, CD and also do ripped playback via Slimdevices Transporter.... I therefore I have no axe to grind on this. I considered a BDP-1 but I prefer the Transporter conceptually due to its use of hardwired ethernet rather than USB drives. Maybe the BDP-1 is better but like many, I have little hi-rez material, my taste in music means hi-rez material will never exist and I like the functionality/SQ of the Transporter (which does go to 24/96 natively)

Also I only rip to WAV files, as this means the Transporter (or any other future device) has no "on the fly" conversion to do during playback. Lack of WAV tagging doesnt matter to me and you can do great "pre-sorting" of WAV files just by using a logical directory structure when you store the WAV files.

My playback chain includes a BP26-DA and a BDA-1 (with the DA function of the BP26 now redundant but its nice to have a temporary "plan b" should the BDA-1 die)

Diamond Dog

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Re: Convince me to buy a BDP-1...
« Reply #27 on: 4 Jun 2012, 01:03 am »

Thanks, Peter. That helps!   :thumb:

Follow-up question if I may...So how much of the improvement on RB-resolution playback vs.a CDP is a result of the effectiveness of the error detection/correction capability of the ripper used ( assuming that not all are created equal ) vs. the particular playback device ( again working under the assumption that not all will be equal ) ?

Also, would it be reasonable to assume that in terms of comparing playback audio quality, the amount ( if any ) of improvement one would see using a BDP-type product vs. a CDP will hinge on how good a job the CDP being compared does in terms of jitter reduction, etc.?

And while we're at it, to those who have found the sound of the BDP to be "better" than that of the CDP it replaced, how would you describe the improvements which you heard?


D.D.

zybar

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Re: Convince me to buy a BDP-1...
« Reply #28 on: 4 Jun 2012, 01:21 am »
The logic behind a ripped CD , played back by some device,  being better is that CD playback on a CD player is "real time" and if there are issues with the physical CD during playback the CD player has limited time (milliseconds) to decide how to deal with it. There is also jitter introduced during playback by the CD having to be spun at varying speeds during playback.

When you rip a CD, the ripper can do massive amounts of error detection/correction that isnt "in band" (ie doesnt happen during playback).. so the quality of the PC drive doesnt really matter (though some people believe that some drives are better).

Then once you have this perfect rip, the playback doesnt involve jitter related to "spinning the CD"

Peter

PS: I spin Vinyl, CD and also do ripped playback via Slimdevices Transporter.... I therefore I have no axe to grind on this. I considered a BDP-1 but I prefer the Transporter conceptually due to its use of hardwired ethernet rather than USB drives. Maybe the BDP-1 is better but like many, I have little hi-rez material, my taste in music means hi-rez material will never exist and I like the functionality/SQ of the Transporter (which does go to 24/96 natively)

Also I only rip to WAV files, as this means the Transporter (or any other future device) has no "on the fly" conversion to do during playback. Lack of WAV tagging doesnt matter to me and you can do great "pre-sorting" of WAV files just by using a logical directory structure when you store the WAV files.

My playback chain includes a BP26-DA and a BDA-1 (with the DA function of the BP26 now redundant but its nice to have a temporary "plan b" should the BDA-1 die)

FWIW, I had a heavily modified Transporter (which I preferred in head to head comparison with a stock Transporter) before trying the BDP-1.  The level of improvement wasn't subtle or small.  If you do a search, you'd can read what I wrote on the topic, as well as what others heard.

George

tdinut

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Re: Convince me to buy a BDP-1...
« Reply #29 on: 4 Jun 2012, 04:21 am »
Jaxwired, it took me a long time to make the decision. I made a bet, took the chance, on it making CD-ripped files sound better. It was a reasoned bet because Bryston electronics makes a big difference. But still it was a bet. And it paid off big time.

All I can say is that it is the only device I use to source music for my main audio system.

BTW, one of the under-rated features of the BDP-1 is that it works well for Internet radio stations. Because I use the BDA-1 the sound of stations playing only in 128 kbs are quite listenable.

Dave
Hi Dave,
Thanks for all your informative posts. I have a question about you streaming through the BDP-1, can you stream higher than 128k? For example MOG or Spotify at 320k?
Thanks!

larevoj

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Re: Convince me to buy a BDP-1...
« Reply #30 on: 4 Jun 2012, 04:51 am »
 :rotflmao:

If you don't buy a BDP-1....




WE'LL SHOOT THIS DOG !!!!

 :wink:
D.D.

DaveNote

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Re: Convince me to buy a BDP-1...
« Reply #31 on: 4 Jun 2012, 11:20 am »
Hi Dave,
Thanks for all your informative posts. I have a question about you streaming through the BDP-1, can you stream higher than 128k? For example MOG or Spotify at 320k?
Thanks!

I am not familiar with MOG or Spotify. There are Internet radio stations above 128, but it has been my experience that there are not a great number of them.

The sound of the jazz stations I use at 128 do not provide high resolution, but the sound is very pleasant, especially when used as badkground music. Listeners who are not audio enthusiasts would find them perfectly acceptable.

I have a very narrow preference in stations - straight jazz, no talk or commercials, no vocals, 24/7 broadcasting. So far I have found only one meeting these strict criteria: Dinner Jazz Excursion.

Dave

Marius

Re: Convince me to buy a BDP-1...
« Reply #32 on: 4 Jun 2012, 12:07 pm »
it will:



not even the slightest problem. (other than the naming convention.....) have a look what the Max2 interface makes of this:





Marius
Will it or will it not play ALAC (apple lossless)?

brucek

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Re: Convince me to buy a BDP-1...
« Reply #33 on: 4 Jun 2012, 12:32 pm »
Quote from: Ricko01
The logic behind a ripped CD , played back by some device,  being better is that CD playback on a CD player is "real time" and if there are issues with the physical CD during playback the CD player has limited time (milliseconds) to decide how to deal with it. There is also jitter introduced during playback by the CD having to be spun at varying speeds during playback.

When you rip a CD, the ripper can do massive amounts of error detection/correction that isnt "in band" (ie doesnt happen during playback).. so the quality of the PC drive doesnt really matter (though some people believe that some drives are better).

Then once you have this perfect rip, the playback doesnt involve jitter related to "spinning the CD"

Actually, I don't believe jitter is related to spinning the CD. My understanding is that jitter is a time based error. It occurs between the clock used to get the data off the disk in a CD transport and the clock used in the DAC system. In the simple CD 'player' configuration the identical master clock is used for these two functions and so in this 'synchronous system' jitter isn't a concern. The master clock that's in charge of getting the data off the disk is also used by the CD players internal DAC. This is the best possible situation, and in that regard, the CD 'player' is king as long as the DAC and analog output circuitry of the player are well made (and there's the rub). This synchronous system should arguably beat the transport/BDP-1/DAC situation if jitter is the argument.

I doubt errors are the answer why the BDP would best a CD player either. The playback of a CD isn't really "real time". The data is stored in a buffer as it's de-interleaved and decoded. This buffering stabilizes the data and allows it to flow out at an even rate. There's ample time for error correction. Any reading I've done on CD error correction discusses the algorithm Cross Interleave Reed-Solomon (CIRC). There's lots of math equations involved that one could read up on, but the usual conclusion is that it's a fairly effective system.

So it leaves me wondering why the BDP would be better than a high quality CD player. Bryston's forte is analog output stages, but the BDP doesn't have that capability. It doesn't even have a DAC. There's certainly value in anecdotal evidence, but I'd buy into the hype more easily if there were some supportable technical reasons.

brucek

Sasha

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Re: Convince me to buy a BDP-1...
« Reply #34 on: 4 Jun 2012, 02:54 pm »
Actually, I don't believe jitter is related to spinning the CD. My understanding is that jitter is a time based error. It occurs between the clock used to get the data off the disk in a CD transport and the clock used in the DAC system. In the simple CD 'player' configuration the identical master clock is used for these two functions and so in this 'synchronous system' jitter isn't a concern. The master clock that's in charge of getting the data off the disk is also used by the CD players internal DAC. This is the best possible situation, and in that regard, the CD 'player' is king as long as the DAC and analog output circuitry of the player are well made (and there's the rub). This synchronous system should arguably beat the transport/BDP-1/DAC situation if jitter is the argument.

I doubt errors are the answer why the BDP would best a CD player either. The playback of a CD isn't really "real time". The data is stored in a buffer as it's de-interleaved and decoded. This buffering stabilizes the data and allows it to flow out at an even rate. There's ample time for error correction. Any reading I've done on CD error correction discusses the algorithm Cross Interleave Reed-Solomon (CIRC). There's lots of math equations involved that one could read up on, but the usual conclusion is that it's a fairly effective system.

So it leaves me wondering why the BDP would be better than a high quality CD player. Bryston's forte is analog output stages, but the BDP doesn't have that capability. It doesn't even have a DAC. There's certainly value in anecdotal evidence, but I'd buy into the hype more easily if there were some supportable technical reasons.

brucek
I agree with you for the most part, IMO the best made CD players are still the kings due to reasons you described, provided you have perfect CDs, but that is a rare case, so you depend more often than not on the dreaded real-time error correction.
And there is still jitter at play, it can never be eliminated, and certainly not when a mechanical spinning device is the source of the data that must be framed and clocked, regardless of buffering, some timing errors are unavoidable.
But in principle I agree, in ideal world jitter in top end CD player is magnitudes smaller.
What I do not agree with is that the buffering you describe allows for “ample time for error correction” during CD playback. That is not correct, multiple attempts to read problematic sector are not possible during CD playback, and is one of reasons why technically PC based transport with ripped tracks can be superior.
With understanding that synchronous system in CD player is superior and there is no need to subject data to SPDIF framing and transport what is the major source of jitter, BDP-1 can be actually superior simply because in real world the quality of CD media is far from ideal and the inherent advantage of top end CD player can quickly melt away when compared to top end PC based transport such as BDP-1. Add to that BDP-1’s capability to support high resolution material and its advantages quickly overcome disadvantages rooted in reliance on jitter inducing SPDIF transport.
On top of that one cannot ignore the advantage of convenient access to software that BDP-1 provides. Price has to be considered as well, top end CD players are quite expensive.
In conclusion, BDP-1+BDA-1 could be considered a winner in comparison to top end CD player despite BDP-1 being very jittery source in comparison to superior method of data transmission to DAC section in top end CD player, due to CD player reliance of real-time error correction and less than ideal media, due to BDP-1 supporting high resolution software, and finally due to convenience of access.

brucek

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Re: Convince me to buy a BDP-1...
« Reply #35 on: 4 Jun 2012, 06:04 pm »
Quote
What I do not agree with is that the buffering you describe allows for “ample time for error correction” during CD playback. That is not correct, multiple attempts to read problematic sector are not possible during CD playback, and is one of reasons why technically PC based transport with ripped tracks can be superior.

Fair enough, but I hesitate to use the arguable advantage of CD ripped data being superior to the real time play of a CD player since this is an external process to all digital players. I realize the question I framed was the BDP superiority over a CD player, but how does the advantage of CD ripped data being superior account for the BDPs accolades compared to other digital players. Why would the BDP sound so much better than a Logitech Transporter when they both use the same ripped data.

Quote
On top of that one cannot ignore the advantage of convenient access to software that BDP-1 provides.

Can't argue with that, and I certainly have all my music ripped, and I use it a lot. But when it comes to critical listening, for me, it's hard to beat a CD player.

brucek

Sasha

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Re: Convince me to buy a BDP-1...
« Reply #36 on: 4 Jun 2012, 08:48 pm »
Fair enough, but I hesitate to use the arguable advantage of CD ripped data being superior to the real time play of a CD player since this is an external process to all digital players. I realize the question I framed was the BDP superiority over a CD player, but how does the advantage of CD ripped data being superior account for the BDPs accolades compared to other digital players. Why would the BDP sound so much better than a Logitech Transporter when they both use the same ripped data.

Can't argue with that, and I certainly have all my music ripped, and I use it a lot. But when it comes to critical listening, for me, it's hard to beat a CD player.

brucek
Agree, from that perspective alone BDP-1 has no advantage over other transports such as Logitech Transporter.
Where BDP-1 takes off is the execution, I had first hand experience with building my own PC based transport, minimizing OS footprint, electrical noise, RFI, all that matters in jitter reduction on SPDIF output, and all the areas where Bryston has done very good job with BDP-1.
That is why IMO Bryston BDP-1 shines, why it shows such good measurements and why it is almost universally praised for its performance.
Out of curiosity, what CD player do you have?
I had Wadia 581SE with digital board, the plan was to use it as centerpiece of the system and via i/o board utilize its DACs for conversion of all digital sources.
Its CD playback was absolutely phenomenal but i/o board was not that great, it worked well with 16/44.1 signal but had intermittent problems with 24/96 (and of course did not support 192kHz), so I gave up on it in the end.
If it had better digital i/o board I would never let it go.


ricko01

Re: Convince me to buy a BDP-1...
« Reply #37 on: 4 Jun 2012, 10:08 pm »
My understanding is that jitter is a time based error. It occurs between the clock used to get the data off the disk in a CD transport and the clock used in the DAC system.
brucek
well...yes you are correct... jitter will occur within the realm of the DAC but.......the CD laser needs to react to the depressions on the CD substrate..that involves ensuring the laser "sled" is correctly positioned, is positioned in time and that the CD is spinning at the correct rate (noting that it will rotate at different speeds depending on where the laser "sled" is)

So all this depends on a stable power supply (external), a well executed power supply internally, etc etc.

And yes a CD player has error correction and a small buffer but my point was that when you have damaged/scratched CD's and/or some issue with rotational accuracy (due to power issues etc) then a CD player will induce jitter (mechanical) during playback.

So this is where a ripped CD image is potentially better because this mechanical jitter will not appear during play.

Now if you have a gazillion dollars to throw at a real high end player and/or a player that might have a very large mem buffer (aka a "memory" player) then mechanical jitter will potentially be non-existent.

But I am sure both you and I dont have a gazillion dollars so our existing CD players, while hi-end, wont be totally immune to mechanical jitter.

PS. This is also why some people say that reburning a CD into CD-RW media sounds better cause the CD pits on the CD-RW are larger and have a slightly rounded profile at the pit entry so it makes the laser's works easier

sfraser

Re: Convince me to buy a BDP-1...
« Reply #38 on: 5 Jun 2012, 03:22 am »
I have yet to have anyone successfully explain to me why all significant jitter cannot be removed by building an appropriate play out buffer just prior to the DAC? We do this all the time in the internet-working world when we build synchronous TDM circuits/services  over a packet based IP network.

Scott 

Sasha

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Re: Convince me to buy a BDP-1...
« Reply #39 on: 5 Jun 2012, 03:29 am »
I have yet to have anyone successfully explain to me why all significant jitter cannot be removed by building an appropriate play out buffer just prior to the DAC? We do this all the time in the internet-working world when we build synchronous TDM circuits/services  over a packet based IP network.

Scott
I have never heard of synchronous TDM circuit over a packet based IP network, care to explain?