[Brad W.]

Hello;

I've been lurking around here for a while now and have to say this is really a nice site with a good friendly atmosphere.  I'm glad I found it!

I've had a pair of Rogue Audio Magnum M-120 amps for about 18 months now and drive them with a Rogue Audio Magnum 99 preamp.  I've been extremely pleased with them, to say the least.  Well I recently called Mark of Rogue Audio to order a new set of output tubes and he made me a great offer on upgrading my amps to the newer M-150's.  Unfortunately there is no place near me where I can listen to the M-150's so if I upgrade it will have to be without hearing them first.  Mark thinks I would be happy with the upgrade and he hasn't steered me wrong yet, but I was hoping to get some additional input before making a decision.

Mark tells me that the newer design produces about half the heat, has about double the output tube life, and is more dynamic and transparent.  I'm thinking to go for the upgrade but given how pleased I've been with my current amps I'm more than a little hesitant.  Any input will be greatly appreciated.

Have a good day
Brad

[Merle]

If you are truly happy with your current set-up, STICK WITH IT!

[Brad W.]

If you are truly happy with your current set-up, STICK WITH IT!

There's a lot to be said for that and it's a big reason I'm so hesitant.  I haven't touched a thing in my system for over a year now and have enjoyed just listening and purchasing LP's.  But now I have the chance to possibly take things up another step at a very reasonable price so it's got me thinking...

I was happy with my previous system and decided to step up to higher quality equipment anyway and have never regretted it, it just sounds so much better.  So even though I'm happy with things now, why not step it up a notch if I can?  I just wish I could listen to the upgrade before taking the plunge.  I figure getting some input from someone who has already done it is the next best thing.  I really don't know yet if I'll do it or not.

Thanks
Brad

[DARTH AUDIO]

Brad, If you don't Upgrade, Modify or Tweak your system every 3 months Audio Circle will give you the BOOT!!        Just kidding..

Go for the upgrade, I know I guy here in Chicago that sells Rogue and he thought the 150 was as Mark said. More dynamic and transparent. He thought they were A lot better. Just my 2 cents

[Ron D]

Having met Mark a year ago I can attest that he is enthusiastic about audio in general and not just about his products. A big kid at heart!Keeping in mind that there is a financial gain for Rogue if you do the upgrades, like you I'd would also want to get a feel if there is any verifiable gain in pleasure before plunking down the greenbacks. Unfortunately like so many system owners you are nearing the point of less bang for your buck. Once one gets to a certain level (and I'm not sure where everyone's "level" is) a little increase in audio quality usually is tied into a more significant dollar investment.

I am familair with Mark's gear as I started with a Rogue 66 preamp and then had it "Magnumed" for around $400 - nice upgrade but I wasn't floored but then I couldn't do a swap to hear the prior way it worked. Moving to a Magnum 99 was an entirely different story.

Sometimes faith if only blind is what one needs...

Start a thread over at Audiogon - Rogue has a larger following over there.

[Carlman]

I have not heard the M-120's but I have heard the 150's and all I can say is WOW! Those are some excellent sounding amps.  Some of the most natural, musical and involving amps I've heard.  They weren't warm like I thought they'd be and they were different than any solid state I've heard.  They got me thinking that I might be a fan of tube amps... Time will tell...

If the upgrade is affordable, I'd say go for it.  Any upgrade I've done to gear only augmented the qualities I liked to begin with....

-C

[Brad W.]

Thanks for the replies! I've decided to go for the upgrade, I'll be shipping my amps to Rogue tomorrow. I'm pretty excited, I have an idea that I won't be disappointed. I decided to have them leave the Magnum M-120 faceplates on them, I think they look better. The only downside I see will be having to go without my amps for about three weeks. I guess the old H/K AVR 7000 will get pressed back into 2 channel service for a while. I think I'll survive...

Darth Audio, I guess I'll get the boot a few months after getting my amps back! I have a strong tendency to get my system to where I'm happy with it and then just leave it alone for long periods of time.  I listen to it nearly every evening almost exclusively listening to LP's.  I find that once I'm happy with it, every time I think about doing a tweak I wind up turning it on first and then, so much for the tweak.  I have too much trouble turning it back off to mess with it!  Oh well, I guess we all have our weaknesses...  

Have a good day
Brad

[AmirB]

Hi Brad,
I am in the same boat as you are.  I have been considering the upgrade due to high tube temperature, which is hard on the tube and the pc board.  The sonic improvements will be a bonus.  Please post your impressions.  I would appreciate it if you could send me a PM and let me know the cost of the upgrade.  
Enjoy

Amir

[Brad W.]

Amir, I sent you a PM.

I'm surprised at how much I miss my amps already! I hooked up my TT to the H/K so I could play my LP's and didn't even make it all the way through the first LP where as I usually have trouble making myself shut things down. It sounds pretty good, I can't really say anything is blatantly bad about it, but it just doesn't "draw me in" the way my tube gear does. The midrange is certainly not as nice but I think there's more to it than that.

I can't pick out all the little nuances that some of you can, nor am I any good at describing what I'm hearing. Heck, I'll be the first to admit that I have trouble hearing the differences between cables or between using a power filter or not.  I do notice the changes, just not immediately and I can’t readily pick out what they are.  I have to listen for a while and then I notice that either I like it better or I don’t, either I get more or less involved in the music.  For example if I remove my DeZorel power filter or go to a cheap interconnect I don’t immediately notice any change.  But then as I listen I just lose interest, something is missing even though it’s hard for me to tell just what it is and nearly impossible for me to describe it.  It took me a long time to find the right combination of equipment to really “draw me in and keep me involved” in the music I think in part because of the difficulty of quickly being able to pick out the subtle changes.  I had to listen to each combo for a period of time until it became obvious with each change whether it could hold my attention or not.  Maybe I’m fooling myself, but I don’t think so, it hasn’t always been the most expensive choice that worked for me.  In fact I was happy to find that my favorite interconnect combo didn’t turn out to be the most pricey one that I tried.

Now if something screws with the sound stage, depth, instrument placement, or focus I pick up on it right away.  That’s one of the things about my system that I really enjoy, it does all those things really well.  I’ll plant myself right in the sweet spot and enjoy the feeling of “being there” for hours at a time.  I actually found that placing the speakers correctly came much easier than finding the right combination of equipment because I could readily distinguish the changes and just kept moving them around until everything came together.

OK, enough rambling... I'll post my impressions of the upgrade when I get the amps back. I just wanted you all to first have an idea where I'm coming from and the difficulty I have describing what it is that makes me enjoy one setup over another.

Have a good day
Brad

[SnapperHawk]

I was offered an upgrade option path similar to the one offered you for my Magnum 88. The difference was that my amp was in the shop for repair. Let me preface the rest of this post by saying that I now longer do business with Rogue.

I owned the Magnum 88 for a year and a half. In that time it was in the shop twice, once for a blown capacitor (sparks and smoke) and a second time for a destroyed power circuit (capacitors and resistors fried with sharred PCB plastic adjacent to the connections between these parts ). Essentially I was told I could upgrade to the newer and better version of the amp for $600 (or they would replace the bad parts and send it back since the 88 was still under warranty). But the real problem was the amp ran hot, very hot and that broke down the passive parts. Just swapping out the burnt out parts would not fix this.

To cut a long and rather unsatisfactory story short (at least on my part), and after some contentious e-mails between me and Rogue, I told them to honor the warranty and fix the inherent problem (that is the proposed upgrade) with the amp (not for an additional $600) or they could keep it. They chose to keep it. Actually I said they could put it somewhere "dark".

The upshot of this experience is that I am now very careful where I buy products. Rogue is no longer on my list, mainly because of the customer service aspects, but also because their power amps may not be robust enough in terms of PCB's and passive parts. That is, they may not withstand the high temperatures generated by the power tubes in the amp (and yes, I had the cover off to aid in heat transfer, and in the summer I had a fan oscillating in its direction-it did not help). My other problem was that I lived across country from Rogue and the amp and tubes do not ship well (the PCB is fragile-when I got it back the first time, tubes were damaged from shipping).

So, good luck in your dealings with Rogue. I hope everything works out well for you.

[Brad W.]

SnapperHawk;

I guess if my experience with Rogue had been like your I would not do business with them either.  However I have had nothing but good experiences with them.  My M-120’s ran extremely hot but never gave me any problems at all, other than I could not keep my living room cool in the summer while the sun was up and would eventually have to shut them down just so I could cool off.

When I needed to talk to Rogue I always emailed them in the evening and always got a detailed reply the next morning.  Whenever I called them Mark was always willing to talk with me until all my questions were answered.

I also live across the country from them but never had any problems with shipping, other than UPS taking more than a week to deliver.  I’m sorry to hear that you didn’t have a similar experience...

Have a good day
Brad

[Brad W.]

Well, I guess it’s about time I write my impressions of the amps.  Unfortunately it was nearly two months between sending the amps in for the upgrade until I could really do any serious listening.  UPS took ten days to get the amps to Rogue and then a week to get them back to me.  Rogue took just over two weeks to do the upgrade which was faster than they said so I can’t complain there.  And just my luck, just when I got them back I had an infection that constricted my left ear canal and greatly attenuated my hearing in that ear, especially the high end.  So, it’s pretty hard for me to tell a lot of difference in the sound of the two amps, the M-120’s sounded great, as do the M-150’s.

Rogue was supposed to use KT88’s with the upgrade but installed 6550’s by mistake, so after making sure the amps worked OK I took the new 6550’s out and installed the ones out of the M-120’s.  I talked to Mark and he said he would either swap the tubes free of charge or sell me the KT88’s at his cost.  I should have the KT88’s on Monday.  I’m using RCA clear tops for the 12au7’s and 50’s vintage Matsushita 12ax7’s.  As I said, I’m hard pressed to tell any major differences in the sound but for sure the sound stage is marginally wider and has a little more depth.  In terms of sound quality too much time went by to tell any difference, both version sound great.  I have not tried them with the stock small signal tubes from the M-120’s yet.

These amps run MUCH cooler than the M-120’s did.  I’m really amazed at the difference there.  The M-120’s even got the top cover over the transformers to hot to comfortably hold my hand on for more than a few seconds.  The cover on the M-150’s only get luke warm, even after playing them loud for a long period of time.  The output tubes also run MUCH cooler, putting out very little heat compared to the M-120;s.  In a darkened room the plates on the output tubes in the M-120’s always glowed a dull red near the “wings” but in the M-150’s there is no hint of any glow from the plates.  My speakers are relatively efficient at 92db/watt so both amps in triode mode will effortlessly play louder than I care to play them with no sign of any strain.

The M-120’s didn’t take kindly to the very high impedance that the powered subs presented to them and the output tubes would start to oscillate at about 2hz when I turned them up very loud and would continue to oscillate after turning them down, so I would have to shut them off to stop it once it had started.  The cure was a 20 ohm resistor across the output terminals.  With the resistor they worked flawlessly and still had more power than I could use.  The M-150’s do not do this, no matter what volume I play them at so no more need for the resistors.

I ordered a set of JJ E34L’s to try in them and received them today.  Obviously they have not burned in yet but I’ll give my initial impressions.  I don’t know how much less power the amps produce with these tubes compared to the 6550’s but it’s still more than I will use.  The high end is very noticeably rolled off.  A lot of details on the very high end that were very prominent with the 6550’s are barely noticeable with the E34L’s.  At first I just plain didn’t like it, sounded almost like my tweeters had quit working but after a couple of hours I got more used to it.  The bass is still very strong and dives right down to the deepest notes without ever sounding muddy, just good and clean without overpowering the rest of the music.  The midrange is very nice, making vocals sound very good with no hint of harshness  even on higher pitched female vocals such as Dolly Parton.  In the few hours I’ve listened to them I’ve played some of the tracks I’m most familiar with from some older Dolly Parton, Dave and Sugar, Dire Straits, Pink Floyd, The Kinks, C. W. McCall, Emmylou Harris, and The Who, all on LP’s.  I also played a couple of tracks from a Mary Kathryn CD and a Annie Herring CD.  The two CD’s have some extremely deep bass which sounded very clean and didn’t skew up the mids.  In all cases the vocals sound a little more natural than with the 6550’s.  However if the high end doesn’t come around I don’t think the trade off is worth it.  I look forward to getting the KT88’s so I can try them out  The hard part will be leaving the E34L’s in long enough to get them thoroughly burned in before trying the KT88’s.  Then, once the KT88’s are burned in I can compare all three sets to see which I really prefer.  Once I get that figured out I may try an alternate brand of whichever type turns out to be my favorite.  Then it will be time to experiment with different 6SN7’s in my preamp...

Well, I guess I’ve rambled on long enough.  Hopefully some of it made some sense...

Have a good day
Brad