[pstrisik]

This is a question for Frank though I'd be interested in all opinions and experiences.

I'm coming from all solid state.  Speakers will be Salk SS8s shortly.  The AVA 400/600R amps draw me.  I'm curious though about the differences and relative advantages/disadvantages of going with this hybrid design vs. an all tube design - particularly with regard to power and sound qualities (not so much about heat, cost, etc.).  For example, is sound quality of the hybrids a blend of solid state and tube characteristics?

I realize there are plenty of tube designs that have their own differences - that is a question for another time (SET vs. PP vs. OTL, etc.).

edit: Maybe a relevant comparison would be the Ultra Valve to the Fet Valve.

Thank you,
..........  Peter

[Eric]

I cant speak to Van Alstine amps directly, but I have owned solid state (Bryston), tube (Audio Valve) and my current tube / solid state hybrids (Monarchy). Each application has relative advantages and challenges. I really like the tube / solid state mix because I get the advantage of tube rolling and liquidity paired with solid state bass control. I am sure the Van Alstine amps would be wonderful.

[Austin08]

The big advantage of tube equipment is tube rolling which would either improve or change the sound character of the whole system. The down side is most of nos power tubes are expensive and required changing every 4 to 5 year.

Enough to said, I am happy with my current set up with Bat vk31 and Bat vk6200. It cost me nearly $600 for 6 amprex nos tubes but the sound was much better in every aspects.

[rockadanny]

I had an AVA Ultra Valve and then moved to an all tube amp. The UV was very good, obviously very powerful and very good bass. The bass had a dry quality to it which i really liked. It provided a slight taste of organic quality, but I desired more so ended up going all tube. I miss the bass of the AVA at times, but not enough to trade the natural organic quality and more natural tone I get with my all tube amp (SET).

[pstrisik]

rockdanny - Isn't the Ultravalve and all tube amp?  Or are you comparing SET to the Ultravalve design? 

So it sounds from all your comments that SS would offer better bass or more bass control while tubes give that organic, liquid, or natural sound.  What about highs?  SS has proven to have a bit of an edge to me, but excellent detail.  With tubes, less or no edge, but is there any loss of detail?  What's the trade off?

[trebejo]

I have used the U70 (i.e. Ultravalve in recycled Dynaco 70 chassis) for about a year interchangeably with an Ultra 550. Modulo the power difference, they were as Frank likes to say very very close. For a long time I had persuaded myself that the U70 was the winner, but the summer heat would bring the 550 back into circulation until one day I discovered that I preferred the 550 after all.

Since then, the 550+ to 600R upgrade is significant.

The speakers you use may make a difference, stable friendly impedance curves and all that to aid the all-tube amps. The U70 does a surprisingly excellent job in that regard but of course it is conceding a natural advantage to the SS output stage there.

Nonetheless, I would have unhesitatingly kept my U70 with its charming sound if only the heat issue in the Los Angeles climate had not been there (I like it 68ish temperature wise). I suspect that this would not be a problem if I resided in the beautiful state of Alaska. 

[NIGHTFALL1970]

Peter,
"For example, is sound quality of the hybrids a blend of solid state and tube characteristics?"
Yes.
With the AVA 400R/600R you get CLARITY!  That is the biggest difference. Life-like sound. Better Bass.  Smoother highs.  You will notice things that you never heard before.

[Big Red Machine]

This new amp sounded better with the 8's than the 600R amp at AKFest. 

http://www.avahifi.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=165&Itemid=209

[pstrisik]

I have used the U70 (i.e. Ultravalve in recycled Dynaco 70 chassis) for about a year interchangeably with an Ultra 550. Modulo the power difference, they were as Frank likes to say very very close. For a long time I had persuaded myself that the U70 was the winner, but the summer heat would bring the 550 back into circulation until one day I discovered that I preferred the 550 after all.

Since then, the 550+ to 600R upgrade is significant.

The speakers you use may make a difference, stable friendly impedance curves and all that to aid the all-tube amps. The U70 does a surprisingly excellent job in that regard but of course it is conceding a natural advantage to the SS output stage there.

Nonetheless, I would have unhesitatingly kept my U70 with its charming sound if only the heat issue in the Los Angeles climate had not been there (I like it 68ish temperature wise). I suspect that this would not be a problem if I resided in the beautiful state of Alaska. 

You are correct that heat is not a huge issue here.  In fact, except for maybe 10 days during the summer when it approaches 70, the added heat would be welcome! 

The Salk Soundscape 8's do have relatively a stable impedance curve, IIRC, though at 4 ohm.

So, what is it you prefer about the 550/600R over the U70/ultravalve other than the reduced heat?  And what is it in SQ that makes the U70 have a "charming" sound?

With the AVA 400R/600R you get CLARITY!  That is the biggest difference. Life-like sound. Better Bass.  Smoother highs.  You will notice things that you never heard before.

I've been under the impression that tubes will generally give a smoother top end, possibly with less detail or extension.  Your impression is that the hybrid has smoother highs than all tube?

This new amp sounded better with the 8's than the 600R amp at AKFest. 

http://www.avahifi.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=165&Itemid=209

Pete -- really!?  Did others share your take on that?  Were both amps used wiith the 8's in the same room?  What in particular was better about the solid state amp than the hybrid in your opinion?

As an aside, I just have to comment how great these forums are as a resource.  I think we can still count SS8 owners on one hand and I'm getting input from two of them!  It looks like mine will be counted on the second hand since I've been so slow with the finish decision.  I need to get back in touch with Jim about getting things underway again, so I will ask for his recommendations as well.

--------------

As always, it is difficult to assess from verbal descriptions of non-verbal experiences, but I appreciate the efforts.  Any opinions about the more abstract experience of engagement with and emotional experience of the music between these two designs (in contrast to particular sound qualities)?

Thanks to everyone - great discussion.

.........Peter

[WGH]

This new amp sounded better with the 8's than the 600R amp at AKFest. 

http://www.avahifi.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=165&Itemid=209

Interesting. This may be the first comment regarding the Synergy series since Frank made the announcement. Getting my Insight 400 upgraded would be more affordable than a new 400R. I'm waiting for more reviews/comments before I make a decision, it gives me time to save up too.

Wayne

[mick wolfe]

This is a question for Frank though I'd be interested in all opinions and experiences.

I'm coming from all solid state.  Speakers will be Salk SS8s shortly.  The AVA 400/600R amps draw me.  I'm curious though about the differences and relative advantages/disadvantages of going with this hybrid design vs. an all tube design - particularly with regard to power and sound qualities (not so much about heat, cost, etc.).  For example, is sound quality of the hybrids a blend of solid state and tube characteristics?

I realize there are plenty of tube designs that have their own differences - that is a question for another time (SET vs. PP vs. OTL, etc.).

edit: Maybe a relevant comparison would be the Ultra Valve to the Fet Valve.

Thank you,
..........  Peter

Purely speculation on my part, but I would certainly audition the VA hybrids for openers.  If you thought of going all tube, I wouldn't consider anything less than 100 watts per channel. Good examples without totally breaking the bank are the Quicksilver V4's or the Music Reference RM-9. The Ultra Valve, much like both of my Latino amps, will do its best work into a nice 2-way design. Both my ST70 and ST120 can easily drive my standard SongTowers with ease for example. The ST is a brilliant base design that invites the use of a wide variety of amplifiers. However, once you move on to a big 3-way with response below 30 hz, it's time to move on to more powerful amplification..... if want to get the most out of your new purchase.

[avahifi]

At AKFest we used both the Fet Valve 600R and the new Synergy 450 amplifier on all of Jims speakers there.

My opinion was that the Soundscape 8s were voiced a very tiny bit lean and very sightly hot, although amazingly well resolving.

The big new Synergy amplifier actually sounds like  huge effortless vacuum tube amplifier - - - slightly warm and with a big powerful bass response.  I agree that it matched the Soundscape 8s better, bringing out more bass energy and a more balanced overall sound from the system.  The Fet Valve 600R does have significantly deeper clean bass reach and is slightly more transparent with slightly better controlled and more transient energy overall, but no speaker is the perfect match for any given amplifier.

Here I use both Salk HT3s and older B&W 801 speakers side by side.  I like the Fet Valve 600R slightly better on the 801s, and the Synergy 450 slightly better on the Salks.  I like having both the Salks and the 801s driven in parallel at the same time from the 600R most of all.  Its kind of a huge super well balanced 6 way system then. 

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[pstrisik]

Purely speculation on my part, but I would certainly audition the VA hybrids for openers.  If you thought of going all tube, I wouldn't consider anything less than 100 watts per channel. Good examples without totally breaking the bank are the Quicksilver V4's or the Music Reference RM-9. The Ultra Valve, much like both of my Latino amps, will do its best work into a nice 2-way design. Both my ST70 and ST120 can easily drive my standard SongTowers with ease for example. The ST is a brilliant base design that invites the use of a wide variety of amplifiers. However, once you move on to a big 3-way with response below 30 hz, it's time to move on to more powerful amplification..... if want to get the most out of your new purchase.

I have been concerned about power.  One of the reasons I'm considering the hybrid.  So point taken.  However, Jim specifies minimum 40watts tube power for the SS8 (100 for solid state), so they are apparently easy to drive.  I would not want to be at the minimum though.

Quicksilver V4 starts to get expensive for me at close to $6000.  The RM-9 apparently is no longer made, so used only for that one. 

[WGH]

At AKFest we used both the Fet Valve 600R and the new Synergy 450 amplifier on all of Jims speakers there.

Will you be traveling with both types of amps when you do shows from now on? Since I have Salk HT2-TLs the best time for me to audition both amps on the same speaker will be the next RMAF in Oct. Maybe we can try out your new ABX test box?

At RMAF a few years ago I listened to both the Songtowers and the HT2-TLs using the same AVA amp, although the Songtowers sounded terrific, picking the HT2-TLs was a no brainer.

Wayne

[Big Red Machine]

The Synergy amp is as Frank defines it and I really liked it. 

Peter, trust me, don't get anything less than 200 wpc.

[Ericus Rex]

Peter, trust me, don't get anything less than 200 wpc.

I think I get pretty good sound out of 90 tube watts.   

[pstrisik]

At AKFest we used both the Fet Valve 600R and the new Synergy 450 amplifier on all of Jims speakers there.

My opinion was that the Soundscape 8s were voiced a very tiny bit lean and very sightly hot, although amazingly well resolving.

The big new Synergy amplifier actually sounds like  huge effortless vacuum tube amplifier - - - slightly warm and with a big powerful bass response.  I agree that it matched the Soundscape 8s better, bringing out more bass energy and a more balanced overall sound from the system.  The Fet Valve 600R does have significantly deeper clean bass reach and is slightly more transparent with slightly better controlled and more transient energy overall, but no speaker is the perfect match for any given amplifier.

Here I use both Salk HT3s and older B&W 801 speakers side by side.  I like the Fet Valve 600R slightly better on the 801s, and the Synergy 450 slightly better on the Salks.  I like having both the Salks and the 801s driven in parallel at the same time from the 600R most of all.  Its kind of a huge super well balanced 6 way system then. 

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

Thanks for the reply Frank.  It's interesting that an all SS amp has smoother highs than a hybrid.  Do you think that is unique to the SoundScapes or generally true for these amps?  If I had to put more weight on one factor, it would be the overall smoothness of the highs/upper mids (lack of bright/edge/fatigue, etc) due to my need for hearing aids - maybe what I need is a pair of single ended triode hearing aids - talk about being a hot-head!    So, I pay particular attention when people talk about the characteristics of the highs.

On another note, did you ever get hold of the Zeroformers to experiment with?  You mentioned that possibility in one of the sticky threads about the Ultravalves.  If they work well, it would open up the possibility of using a pair of bridged Ultravalves with my 4ohm SS8's. 

........Peter

[pstrisik]

The Synergy amp is as Frank defines it and I really liked it. 

Peter, trust me, don't get anything less than 200 wpc.

I've been thinking minimum 200wpc for SS and 80wpc for tube (double Jim's minimum requirements for the SS8's). 

I think I get pretty good sound out of 90 tube watts.   

With what speakers?

...........Peter

[avahifi]

The new Synergy amplifiers are amazingly smooth!  Not smooth glossing over details and opaque, just simply very engaging and easy to listen to.  They really help make the whole system vanish and leave you with the music.  Most first time listeners comment about how smooth the amps are, really tube like but with no excess warmth (just enough) and with solid powerful bass control, and yes extended highs and detail and life like transients.

Relatively inexpensive, cool running, very powerful, very quiet, and very very musical.  An ideal match for the Soundscape 8s. And of course with our 30 day satisfaction guarantee, its a no risk no brainer amp to try out.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

PS  You really need a lot more power for the S8s than even a pair of bridged Ultravalve amps can do. 
The Synergy 450 is a lot less expensive than a pair of Ultravalves and will much better suit your needs.

[mark funk]

I was just going to say that! You well need a little more power then two UltraValves . Hows about two Senergy 450s bridged? Now that is some head room :thumb