[cryotweaks]

I recently purchased a Denon 5900 universal player from Denon directly. Thinking that the multichannel outputs would create a seamless integration with the analog multichannel inputs of my Parasound Halo C1 preamp/processor.  However the 5900 seems a bit quirky regarding bass management, and source direct mode.  Allow me to explain.

The Parasound Halo C1 offers analog multichannel inputs that bypass internal signal processing.  When you use these inputs the C1 is basically acting as a multichannel volume control.  Giving you the ability to control the volume for all channels individually.

The Denon, is a bit more complicated.
The 5900 has several setup options to accomodate optimal playback of CDs, DVDs, SACD and DVD-A.  You have a bass management option for multi-channel that allows you to set the size of your speakers, and the crossover freq of your sub.  My system is set up like the following:


L-R       SMALL

Center    SMALL

Surround  SMALL

Subwoofer ON (80hz)

That all seems fine, until you dig deeper.
When I play an SACD under the 5900's "default" settings, for some odd reason the bass frequencies are diminished by about 15 dB, forcing me to boost the subwoofer gain +12dB (that's the max) on my preamp. First question:  Why is this done at all?
Now I could use the Denon's bass enhancer setting, but it makes the bass muddy in comparison to just boosting the gain on my preamp/processor.

By the way, standard CDs and DVDs play fine under the default settings. No altered frequency response.

More complications

Denon also has a Source Direct mode.  The 5900's manual states that in Source Direct mode, the bass frequencies are 15dB higher for SACD (essentially flat), and 5dB higher in CD/DVD playback.  The result?  An essentially flat response when playing SACDs, and a 5dB boost when playing CDs or DVDs.  They could have stopped with the 15dB for SACD.  

It gets worse

Now if you are in the "Source Direct" mode listening to a multichannel SACD, everything sounds as it should on my system as it is set up.  The small speakers are receiving the high pass signal, the subwoofers are receiving a flat, low pass signal.  All is well.

BUT if you are in Source Direct mode, and want to listen to a two-channel SACD, the 5900 automatically resets your L-R speakers to LARGE and eliminates bass management.  Again, why?

Why not simplify things and leave the settings the same for two channel SACD, only eliminate the Center and Surround channels?  My L-R speakers are still small, regardless of whether I'm listening to multi or two channel SACD. They need the subwoofer for full range reproduction.

Additionally, when in source Direct mode and playing a DVD or CD,  I have to turn the gain on my preamps subwoofer output down by 5dB due to the 5dB boost the 5900 gives the signal.  This is all very strange.  Am I mistaken or doing something wrong?

I just don't think something could be this poorly engineered, I have to be doing something wrong. Am I?

[Rob Babcock]

Unfortunately, DVD-A, SACD & DD all have different ".1" or "LFE" levels.  The only really good solution under the circumstances would be for Denon to include a global surround configuration for each different type of media (CD, DVD, DVD-A, SACD, etc) and automatically apply the correct BM & speaker settings (obviously a Universal player will be able to tell what type of disc has been inserted).  This would take a bit more work for the end user in setup, but would only need to be done once.

It's exasperating that the two competing formats couldn't both adopt the same standard for bass level, and depending upon the record label, they don't even use the same speaker config (eg Chesky favors 6.0 with no sub & all speak's mapped to large).

[RussKon]

it's amazing that a high end unit like the 5900 has such poor user ergonomics.....

my low end sony sacd/dvd unit has bass management as well but you set it once and it is consistent across the board.... multichannel or 2 channel

 

[Rob Babcock]

That's partly because Sony is too backward/stubborn to add DVD-A playback.   The problem stems from the fact that the formats use a diff ref level.  I agree that Denon could have done better, but I don't know of any Universal player on the market from any company that will do global bass managment any better.

It seems to me that it would be a pretty simple fix on Denon's part.  Will enough people make enough noise for them to do so?  Hard to say.

[mgalusha]

It seems to me that it would be a pretty simple fix on Denon's part.  Will enough people make enough noise for them to do so?  Hard to say.

Actually they might. One of the Denon reps hangs out on the AV Science forums and they recently released new firmware to directly address issues the AVS members were having trouble with. It's worth a shot.

mg

[RussKon]

 I agree that Denon could have done better, but I don't know of any Universal player on the market from any company that will do global bass managment any better.

from what i've read about using the i-link connection on the pioneer units it pretty much solves all the issues brought up here concerning the denon...

it moves the bass management to the receiver or pre/pro..... leaving the signal in the digital domain all the way.....

 

[Rob Babcock]

Yeah, that's a good solution if you're using a Pioneer reciever.  Doesn't help much if you're using a MC preamp, though.  As of right now, there are only a tiny handful of players, receivers or prepro's that will accomodate a hi rez signal in digital form.  I fully expect that to change in the very near future, and eventually this will likely be as common as toslink or coax digital connections.

As has been mentioned, Denon has shown some responsiveness when it comes to firmware updates, so maybe there is a fix for this.