[nnck]

I currently have a VPI Scout turntable, and I'm toying with the idea of upgrading. Not upgrading for any very specific reason, just upgraditis.

Main contenders for my consideration have been VPI Classic 1, and SOTA Sapphire or Star (looking both new and used, or refurbished). Have to admit that I just love the way the SOTA tables look cosmetically, but I'm trying to not let that be a final deciding factor.

Since I already have the VPI Scout, as mentioned, I feel like I sort of know what to expect with that table as far as setup, maintenance, etc. But the SOTA looks like a different beast altogether, with its platform suspension, some with vacuum design. Plus it doesnt come with an arm, so there's choosing and installing tonearms, and all that.

So my main questions are concerning the SOTA. Although I love the cosmetics, I'm worried that it might be finicky to set up and maintain properly. I think that the good looks would wear off quickly if it wasnt more or less a 'set it and forget it' type of table. So...

How difficult is it to set up a SOTA, in general? I dont want to feel like I have to rely on a dealer or outside party everytime I want to change something around. I'm a 'set it and forget it' guy, but I really prefer to be able to do these things on my own.

How difficult is it to pick out a good, reliable and easy to set up arm that wont cost a fortune (say under $1000)?

Other maintenance considerations for the SOTA for someone not used to these designs?

[thunderbrick]

I have older SOTA TT that I've essentially rebuilt (motor, bearings).  It's easy to work on and the people at SOTA are a joy to work with

Every time I moved (4-5 times) I've carefully put it in the original box, set it up at the new place, adjusted it, and forgot it.  Built like a tank IMHO.  Mine has the ET-2 air bearing arm which is a PITA to set up.  Sometimes I wish I had my old SME 3009 arm instead.  Just simpler.

[lobodude]

I have tried both Sota & VPI turntables and both are great tables. I prefer the sound of the Sota. My current main turntables is a Cosmos MK IV with a SME IV.vi and an Ortofon A90 using an Audio Research PH 8 phono stage. I also have a Sota Nova MK V with a SME 309 with a Sumiko Blackbird cartridge connected to a Pass labs XP-25.  I also have a current version of the SME 10 with a current SME V tonearm with a Koetsu Rosewood Signature also hooked up to the XP 25 on the 2nd input. I also have a Clearaudio concept turntable with a Sumiko Blackbird on a Sutherland 20/20 phono amp.  I have had several Sota Stars, Sapphires and a couple of Novas.  I have also owned several VPI turntables and they do sound very good but the Sota tables seem to be more coherent with more information especially the Vacuum Sota turntables. Sota turntables are not all that difficult to set up as long as you get the right tonearm and arm board. If you get any one of the SME magnesium 9" tone arms like a the 309, IV.vi and a 9" and the Cosmos armboard cut and weighted  for a SME on a Sota Nova or Star with vacuum turntable you cannot go wrong.  If you  get any of the 3 9" SME magnesium arms and pre -weighted cosmos armboard you should be up and running with very little effort.   

[neobop]

I agree.  They're not particularly hard to set up. About the only thing you have to adjust on the table, other than the usual, is the ballast.  They supply a couple of lead bars and there's a cup for lead shot under the armboard.  You use lead to even the suspension depending on the weight of your arm.  There are certain procedures when moving them but it's no big deal.

The other question about quality vs VPI and a $1K arm, is a toughie.  Depending on whether you're talking about a new or used arm, it's going to be hard to beat a Classic for sound quality.  I don't own a Classic but I heard one at a dealer - it's a class act.  I have an old Sapphire. It's a beauty, with the wood and tinted cover, all that, but it won't really compete with a Classic for sound quality IMO.  I had a $1K arm on mine, a Alphason 100S.  I've heard and set up some with various expensive arms Zeta, SME V, Souther etc. They can sound good but I think you would need to modify a Sota to compete with a Classic. My Sapphire needs a steel plate on the underside of the plinth. Too much weight on 1/2" MDF. It flexes. The springs/legs are connected to the underside of the plinth (top piece). 

















Great ceramic platter with lead insert, inverted bearing and delrin mat. I don't know what changes were made on newer ones. This is from the '80s.  The only negative I've read about the Classic is some people don't like the arms. The sound seemed really good to me.

[nnck]

Thanks for the info so far guys. I appreciate it.

One thing I should clarify- If I go with a SOTA, I'm not talking about an old fixer-upper. Not that there's anything wrong with that- I appreciate that some of us can restore an old classic like that. If I purchased a SOTA it would probably be new or relatively new or refurbished by SOTA.

So I dont know how the sound quality compares with a newer SOTA model?

@neobop- not sure if your comments about sound quality would be the same vs a brand new (or almost) SOTA Sapphire or Star? And yeah, picking out an arm looks like it might be a toughie.

[vortrex]

I went down this path before and ended up with the Classic 1.  the SOTA's that you see on refurb are series 3 and the latest ones are series 5.  donna@SOTA sent me a list of differences between the two and from what I remember it was fairly substantial.

[neobop]

Mine wasn't a fixer-upper.  I took it apart with the intent of using the platter/bearing to make a custom table.  If Sota reinforced the plinth instead of just putting a veneer on there, one big issue is solved.  I don't know about these improvements.

You have two somewhat different approaches here.  Sota is a deader sound IMO. The vacuum feature on the Star or Nova vs the VPI peripheral clamp is a good illustration. You can get great depth and solidity for orchestra music on the Sota. I think VPI has better PRAT.  Arm selection can be tricky, depending on what cart(s) you like.  Of course you can get pre drilled armboards from Sota.  I always liked livelier arms on there. The SME V was too damped for a Sota IMO.  I doubt if the overall sound signature has changed much.  Maybe someone with a newer one will chime in.

[nnck]

Mine wasn't a fixer-upper.  I took it apart with the intent of using the platter/bearing to make a custom table.  If Sota reinforced the plinth instead of just putting a veneer on there, one big issue is solved.  I don't know about these improvements.

You have two somewhat different approaches here.  Sota is a deader sound IMO. The vacuum feature on the Star or Nova vs the VPI peripheral clamp is a good illustration. You can get great depth and solidity for orchestra music on the Sota. I think VPI has better PRAT.  Arm selection can be tricky, depending on what cart(s) you like.  Of course you can get pre drilled armboards from Sota.  I always liked livelier arms on there. The SME V was too damped for a Sota IMO.  I doubt if the overall sound signature has changed much.  Maybe someone with a newer one will chime in.

neobop- Are you saying the SOTA is a quieter sounding table? Is this specific to the vacuum designs only, or do you think this would be true of SOTA tables in general (Sapphire is not a vacuum design).

I have been liking the Benz Micro Ace cartridge I am using with my Scout. But I might want to get a LO version. I'm inclined to stay in the Benz line, maybe an Ace or Wood LO.

[kbuzz3]

Im sort of going through the same sota v. vpi as i was getting back into vinyl.  I have not gone far but FYI indications on other boards are that if you buy an arm -cartrudge from sota they will set it up for you prior to shipping so its more plug and play.

Maybe others can chime in but i think sota are generally low maintenance tables.  Im not sure about vpi.  I also think the beauty of the sota is the vaccuum hold down, so for me, it does not make sense to consider one unless it uses this technology. How much that will cost versus your current set , only you can decide

[kbuzz3]

I went down this path before and ended up with the Classic 1.  the SOTA's that you see on refurb are series 3 and the latest ones are series 5.  donna@SOTA sent me a list of differences between the two and from what I remember it was fairly substantial.

Just a quick question, do you mean there are still alot of difference in 5 versus a 3 -after the upgrades?  Also do you know if the upgrades address speed fluctuations.

Thanks

[vortrex]

I only remember thinking to myself that SOTA was not worth it unless buying a new one with the current updates.  it's been a while so I don't remember the specifics.  I would email them and ask.  these refurb ones that you see listed are not very clear on what series they are, but it is series 3.

[nnck]

I also think the beauty of the sota is the vaccuum hold down, so for me, it does not make sense to consider one unless it uses this technology. How much that will cost versus your current set , only you can decide

Like everything else, I think this depends on who you ask. At least according to this reviewer, the benefit of the vacuum over the standard SOTA clamping mechanism was more marginal than you might think:

http://www.stereophile.com/turntables/284sotastar/index2.html

There are also references in the review that SOTA claims the vacuum to be great for warped records - the reviewers opinion on this was different as well. In any case, warped records are simply bad media, imo. Not much sense in trying to correct it.

[neobop]

neobop- Are you saying the SOTA is a quieter sounding table? Is this specific to the vacuum designs only, or do you think this would be true of SOTA tables in general (Sapphire is not a vacuum design).

I have been liking the Benz Micro Ace cartridge I am using with my Scout. But I might want to get a LO version. I'm inclined to stay in the Benz line, maybe an Ace or Wood LO.

I didn't mean quieter, I meant dead as in dead vs live.  With proper set up and supporting structure I don't think quieter is much of a factor. Look at the way they're built. VPI always used steel for a rigid plinth and structure. Sota uses MDF and lead. The bottom of my Sapphire is 1/2" MDF with 1/8" of lead sheet. Attached to that is the arm supporting structure made out of MDF.



I really can't comment on the newer Sotas. I'm also of the mind that the vacuum is of limited value. Many tend to use too much and make it sound even deader. Strangely, some people seem to prefer that. I don't.  I also think there's a good reason all the reviewers went gaga over the Classic. It seems to narrow the gap between belt drive and rim/direct.  Plus, I don't know what arm you could get to compete with the 10.5. From what I've read the Benz would be fine on there. I didn't spend much time listening to the Classic, but it was really good, I could tell. I bet that ten years from now the Classic 1 will be at least a $6K table. Get it in walnut, you'll grow to love it.

[lobodude]

Neobop; You are comparing a 30 year old Sota to a VPI Classic. I sell Sota, VPI, Clearaudio, Avid, and SME. All these tables have their own sound. I do like all all of them or I would not carry them. A current Sota Star Nova MK V is very close to price  of a current VPI Classic and I feel the Star Nova out performs the VPI Classic.  I have not had a VPI Classic for 3 months but when I do have one in stock and clients come over to hear the different turntables they generally buy a Sota Star Nova MK V or a Cosmos IV. My most popular table under $2500.00 is the Clearaudio Concept. It is a giant killer. The Clearaudio Concept terrorizes the VPI turntables in most of VPI's price ranges. The Sota are my best selling turntables.

[TheChairGuy]

Neobop; You are comparing a 30 year old Sota to a VPI Classic. I sell Sota, VPI, Clearaudio, Avid, and SME. All these tables have their own sound. I do like all all of them or I would not carry them. A current Sota Star Nova MK V is very close to price  of a current VPI Classic and I feel the Star Nova out performs the VPI Classic.  I have not had a VPI Classic for 3 months but when I do have one in stock and clients come over to hear the different turntables they generally buy a Sota Star Nova MK V or a Cosmos IV. My most popular table under $2500.00 is the Clearaudio Concept. It is a giant killer. The Clearaudio Concept terrorizes the VPI turntables in most of VPI's price ranges. The Sota are my best selling turntables.

lobodude,

Welcome to Audio Circle and Vinyl Circle, in general.

Please know that your commercial affiliations need to be indicated on your signature here at AC.  It helps to know the 'angle' that you may be coming at a subject. Feel free to insert a web address, too, for this same reason.

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We're not trying to quash entrepreneurial activities in the least - rather, we want to enhance and also fully inform non-commercial, fellow audio/vinylphool participants of your commercial endeavors.

Thank you, John / Facilitator - The Vinyl Circle

[nnck]

Neobop; You are comparing a 30 year old Sota to a VPI Classic. I sell Sota, VPI, Clearaudio, Avid, and SME. All these tables have their own sound. I do like all all of them or I would not carry them. A current Sota Star Nova MK V is very close to price  of a current VPI Classic and I feel the Star Nova out performs the VPI Classic.  I have not had a VPI Classic for 3 months but when I do have one in stock and clients come over to hear the different turntables they generally buy a Sota Star Nova MK V or a Cosmos IV. My most popular table under $2500.00 is the Clearaudio Concept. It is a giant killer. The Clearaudio Concept terrorizes the VPI turntables in most of VPI's price ranges. The Sota are my best selling turntables.

lobodude-
I'm wondering if you have some models confused. Because I think that a new SOTA Nova is quite a bit more expensive than a VPI Classic 1 - about 50% more in fact. It looks like the the SOTA Sapphire (non vacuum) is priced very close to the VPI Classic 1, but then that is still without a tonearm. A refurbished Nova would be in the same price range as well, but then this would again be without a tonearm and would be a Series III.

[neobop]

If Sota reinforced the plinth instead of just putting a veneer on there, one big issue is solved.  I don't know about these improvements.

You have two somewhat different approaches here.  Sota is a deader sound IMO. The vacuum feature on the Star or Nova vs the VPI peripheral clamp is a good illustration. You can get great depth and solidity for orchestra music on the Sota. I think VPI has better PRAT.  Arm selection can be tricky, depending on what cart(s) you like.  Of course you can get pre drilled armboards from Sota....  I doubt if the overall sound signature has changed much.  Maybe someone with a newer one will chime in.

Hi Lobodude,
Thanks for chiming in.  Yours is an opinion we've been hoping for.  You must have been angry when you posted, cause you got the models mixed up. The Sapphire is $2700 w/o arm.  The Star is $3800 w/o arm, and the Nova is $4200 w/o arm.  The Cosmos is $7300 w/o arm.
http://www.needledoctor.com/Online-Store/Sota-Turntables

As I said, I doubt if the design philosophies changed much. Is the plinth on the Sapphire reinforced now, or is the entire weight of the table still on a 1/2" piece of MDF?  Is it still lead/MDF vs steel/acrylic?  This seems to be about Sapphire vs Classic.  Is the popularity of the Classic misplaced, or due to erroneous hype?

Nnck,
Are you near a dealer?  Maybe you can hear this for yourself.  I'm not sure what your entire budget is. Maybe it's flexible to some degree.  I know looks count and you prefer the looks of Sota?  That weighs heavily on preference.  Maybe there's a used Series V w/arm you could find, or you might want to check out a Concept table or a Clearaudio arm. There's another arm, direct from UK, Audiomods - might be worth checking out.
http://www.audiomods.co.uk/completearms.html

There's another table direct from UK.  Might be better than all of the above. You can get it w/o arm.
http://www.trans-fi.com/salvation.htm

Good luck

[TomS]

...

There's another table direct from UK.  Might be better than all of the above. You can get it w/o arm.
http://www.trans-fi.com/salvation.htm

Good luck

Trans-Fi also has a linear arm, the Terminator T3Pro, to go with the Salvation TT, which is the combo I have. I am extremely pleased with the rim drive, having owned both SOTA's and VPI's over the years. Looks is definitely a matter of taste. It's rather industrial compared to the SOTA, but the slate slab is pretty cool. In terms of getting it from the UK, mine shipped faster (Fedex overnight) than most tables I could get in NA. Highly recommended!

[DustyC]

SOTA Nova user here with a Benz ACE LO mounted on a Premier FT-3 arm. I like the result when using the vacuum clamping. Yes at first blush it sounds "dull" BUT I can heard deeper into the recording (if that makes sense).
Another thing I like about the SOTA's is that they don't need any form of suspended platform, pucks or other nicknacks under them. I think that the various newer VPI's don't have any suspension whcih might be an issue if you have lively floors.
SOTA's service is first rate!! 

[curbfeeler]

I’ve owned a SOTA Star for years. I replaced it in 2009 with a VPI Classic.
The SOTA had one problem after another. First the vacuum failed when the platter and mat started to come unglued. The vacuum hold down was finicky in any event. Didn’t like having to closet the pump to keep its noise level unobtrusive. New belts, which are more like linguine than fettuccini in cross section, wouldn’t stay at the outer circumference of the pulley. No amount of adjustment of the attitude of the motor-and-pulley assembly would stabilize the drive system. Went back to an old belt finally. Stray field from the motor induced hum in some cartridges which grew worse as the stylus moved inward. In no way was my Star quieter than the Classic. Others’ mileage may have varied. My SOTA might have been from an inferior production run.
Get the Classic. It is stable, easy to set up and sounds far superior IMHO. The VPI arm allows for azimuth adjustment, essential to obtaining the best channel separation and phase response. Tip: after you have set VTF and VTA snug an O-ring up against the rear of the counterweight. Then when you are setting azimuth by loosening the counterweight and rotating it about the tonearm shaft you will know where the counterweight was positioned for the desired VTF.
I put a Stillpoints hard hat (aluminum hard coat mini inverse riser) on a 1/4-20 threaded stud in place of each foot, then screwed a Stillpoints cone onto each VPI foot and sat the hard hat atop the ceramic ball of the Stillpoints cone. Much more effective isolation and superior resonance control.