[vortrex]

I'm sure Jim can confirm this, but when I had my SongBird apart to replace the damaged woofer, the internal wiring looked anything but cheap. Quite heavy, in fact, but I don't know the AWG.

Cornelis

let me clarify, I didn't say for sure.  I just thought I have seen posts by jim/dennis saying they don't buy into the whole fancy speaker cabling thing.  didn't one of them say they use home depot or radio shack wires in their own system?  also, heavy obviously doesn't always mean quality.

[roscoeiii]

Now that just seems silly. No way changing a power cord on your amp and pre-amp are going to significantly lower the impedence of your whole house. Are you changing all the wires going to your AC also?
I could see how a power conditioner could make a difference and it may then make sense to use an upgraded cord from the conditioner to the equipment.

Regardless of what explanation makes the most sense, why not just give these things a try in your own system? Simple enough to do, as I keep mentioning.

But I am becoming a broken record here. Best I just put "If possible try it out in your own system" in my signature and leave it at that.

Ultimately, your system, your call.

[saeyedoc]

Regardless of what explanation makes the most sense, why not just give these things a try in your own system? Simple enough to do, as I keep mentioning.

 

Thanks, but no thanks. I've been that route before. I did convince myself in the past that cables made a difference. I still have some transparent interconnects.
I got rid of my high priced speaker cables when I had to get something longer in my current house, can't say I've really missed them. I would like to find them though for another system.
My power conditioner died when I did some recent system changes, the only thing I missed is that it fixed a ground loop, but a cheap cheater plug took care of that. With my current setup, it's too much of a pain to run wires through the walls from one shelf to the next.
As an EE major in college and now (for 25yrs) a physician, I guess I know too much about science. I don't have time or patience to do a proper DBT.
I'm putting my upgrade money into speakers.

[roscoeiii]

I guess I know too much about science. I don't have time or patience to do a proper DBT.

Too much about science huh? What about the fact of science that there are some things that can't be explained by science in its current state?

Scientists certainly laud the great explanatory power of science, but they will also equally agree (though perhaps not in as loud a voice) that there is much that science cannot measure or does not understand at present. The limitations of science are very clear to everyone in the scientific field.

And yep, your call on whether a DBT is worth your time and patience. But lets hope your comments don't discourage others from trying out cables, etc with the gold standard double blind method.

I'm putting my upgrade money into speakers.

No argument that you will likely get a better bang-for-your-buck improvement from a speaker upgrade.

[werd]

Now that just seems silly. No way changing a power cord on your amp and pre-amp are going to significantly lower the impedence of your whole house. Are you changing all the wires going to your AC also?
I could see how a power conditioner could make a difference and it may then make sense to use an upgraded cord from the conditioner to the equipment.

I am not talking one cable but outfitting the entire house. Outfitting your system with better mains leads will lower the impedance off that circuit into your fuse box only. How much it effects what your neighborhood transformer sees is another question. It probably does though.

 I am using a 240 20 amp service into my gear and it's glorious. Best kept secret in hifi is 240 into 20 amps.

[saeyedoc]

  But lets hope your comments don't discourage others from trying out cables, etc with the gold standard double blind method.

 

I'm sure there are some things science can't explain, I see them every day.
I hope I don't discourage other from trying new things, that is not my intent, just stating my opinion on things.
If it sounds better to an individual, it's a valid upgrade for them, whether it's real or a placebo effect. Even if it's a placebo effect, that doesn't mean it doesn't really sound better to them.
I see that all of the time, I'll start someone on drops to lower their eye pressure and they come back and tell me they see better, which is not what they're intended for. As long as they're happy, I'm happy.

[saeyedoc]

I am not talking one cable but outfitting the entire house. Outfitting your system with better mains leads will lower the impedance off that circuit into your fuse box only. How much it effects what your neighborhood transformer sees is another question. It probably does though.

 I am using a 240 20 amp service into my gear and it's glorious. Best kept secret in hifi is 240 into 20 amps.

Now that does make some sense, but I'll bet most people don't bother to go that extent. They'll use an upgraded power cord off a regular wall socket that's cabled with who knows what, without a power conditioner, I don't see how the last two feet can make any difference.

[charmerci]

There is improvement that we hear and can explain, and there is improvement that we hear and can't explain. But both are worthwhile if you are hunting for the best sound.

 

Q: Why does your cables "sound better"?

Cable Manufacturer: I don't know. I can't explain it.

[werd]

Now that does make some sense, but I'll bet most people don't bother to go that extent. They'll use an upgraded power cord off a regular wall socket that's cabled with who knows what, without a power conditioner, I don't see how the last two feet can make any difference.

I didn't mean to be practical. I just think people dont consider where their power comes from. It comes from a local neighborhood power transformer that works the same as a dc transformers in most gear. The power supply into your gear comes from a local service. It's very much a part of your system, the same as a power conditioner or bigger main leads the  local neighborhood service transformer is where it all starts with your hifi.

The question is, how do you manipulate the ac current from that transformer to get to your house and ultimately your system. You use bigger power cords and hospital grade outlets.

[DaveC113]

I don't see how the last two feet can make any difference.

The geometry of the wires affects the magnetic fields surrounding the power cable and does seem to have an audible effect. If you try the PC I posted about (for maybe $.50/ft + 20 min of your time) and compare it to a standard PC in a power amp there will be a noticeable difference. Materials and terminations make somewhat of a difference but IMO it's the geometry that is most important. This goes for ICs and SCs as well. Generally you want low capacitance ICs and low induction SCs. It doesn't take much to research the appropriate geometry and construction methods and build superior cables for very little money. And it is interesting how many cables don't bother to follow those simple design parameters.

So IMO it is true the cables are important and can make large differences depending on the system and sensitivity of the listener, but it is related more to the cable's construction rather than price. 

[saeyedoc]

. It doesn't take much to research the appropriate geometry and construction methods and build superior cables for very little money. And it is interesting how many cables don't bother to follow those simple design parameters.

So IMO it is true the cables are important and can make large differences depending on the system and sensitivity of the listener, but it is related more to the cable's construction rather than price.

That's one of the big problems, it costs very little to adhere to good design guidelines for these cables, but the price/performance ratio is probably not there for most people and their systems with commercially bought cables. If you can do it yourself for little $, it may be worth trying.
Now if you don't care how you spend your money, there may be some value in the high dollar cables. If you can do the same thing yourself on the cheap and you notice a difference, that is good bang for the buck.

[music_lover_v2]

Thanks for all the comments.
This is what I'm going to do. Hold on cable/IC upgrade for a few months. First get used to my ST-RT sound and then order the cables. If I see a significant difference, good for me. Else, I don't belong to that elite club! 

[grantc79]

Q: Why does your cables "sound better"?

Cable Manufacturer: I don't know. I can't explain it.

Truer words have never been spoken.

Sorry if I offend anyone but its simply snake oil. When you have hobbies like these where literally everyone in the hobby obviously has disposable income then a company will always pop up to try to get some of it.

The other obvious example is golf. Golf isn't exactly a sport for poor folk and the golfing industry is LITTERED with ridiculous gadgets and gizmos that have a 1000%+ mark up that people buy all day long.

Who among you think this is a good buy?

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/harmonic-resolution-systems-3-shelf-rack-system-19-x

9,000 for a component rack?

[roscoeiii]

Thanks for all the comments.
This is what I'm going to do. Hold on cable/IC upgrade for a few months. First get used to my ST-RT sound and then order the cables. If I see a significant difference, good for me. Else, I don't belong to that elite club! 

A very prudent call. Grab cables that you can audition or return, or dip into the used cable market with cables you are confident you can sell without losing much or any money.

[DaveC113]

Truer words have never been spoken.

Sorry if I offend anyone but its simply snake oil. When you have hobbies like these where literally everyone in the hobby obviously has disposable income then a company will always pop up to try to get some of it.

The other obvious example is golf. Golf isn't exactly a sport for poor folk and the golfing industry is LITTERED with ridiculous gadgets and gizmos that have a 1000%+ mark up that people buy all day long.

Who among you think this is a good buy?

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/harmonic-resolution-systems-3-shelf-rack-system-19-x

9,000 for a component rack?

Agreed, but its not just cables, it's everything.

There are very few high $$$ components or systems that are worthwhile, IMO.... but just like anything else, it is a diminishing return on investment and lots of folks aren't concerned about how much money things cost.

So for those of us on a budget, it's difficult to understand paying 10x as much for something that isn't that much better. Now I have never had that much money, and if I did I would probably not spend it on audio but rather charity. However, I believe it is better for rich folks to spend their money on almost anything rather than horde it, so the presence of items of dubious value does not bother me.

[roscoeiii]

 

There are very few high $$$ components or systems that are worthwhile, IMO.... but just like anything else, it is a diminishing return on investment and lots of folks aren't concerned about how much money things cost.

So for those of us on a budget, it's difficult to understand paying 10x as much for something that isn't that much better.

Oh, I think paying 10x more for gear (particularly in the case of speakers) is a case of diminishing returns. Wow do some speakers that cost 10x more than mine just blow my speakers out of the water. And I love my speakers. Likewise there are speakers 2x or 3x what mine cost that are also very clearly better sounding in almost all respects.

[DaveC113]

Oh, I think paying 10x more for gear (particularly in the case of speakers) is a case of diminishing returns. Wow do some speakers that cost 10x more than mine just blow my speakers out of the water. And I love my speakers. Likewise there are speakers 2x or 3x what mine cost that are also very clearly better sounding in almost all respects.

It's also a personal judgement how much "better" something is.

I have heard only a handful of systems I like a lot better that what I have and they have all cost well over 10x my current investment. But I have been through some gear and found what I like for a reasonable price and your criteria for judging gear may be much different than mine.