[squirrel_nut]

i was reluctant to raise this topic because of my love for stereo and its importance to me throughout my life.
i am 50yo and grew up with a father who was a recording engineer. we always had music playing in our home whether it was live singing or ray charles from the credenza/console. our tv was a 9in black and white job. even after we upgraded to larger color tv's, our listening to music never diminished. music had been thoroughly instilled into our lives.
now i'm all grown with high school and older aged kids. they carry around their notebooks and iPods. a stereo to them is their computer speakers and mp3's. they seem thoroughly happy with the sound quality (or lack of). there is also more than a bit of laziness involved. why learn about something as seemingly complicated as high end audio when all you have to do is click your mouse?
they wonder into the living room on occassion where they will frequently find me just sitting there enjoying whatever CD is spinning. i get the oddest looks from them, like i have lost my mind or am some kind of relic. my wife, who is 10 years younger, hasnt until recently begun to join me for any length of time. before, when i asked her why she didnt use our stereo, she said it was a generational thing. she is hooked on the iPod as well. at least she is excited about the SongTowers jim should be sending me soon. she even bought into a full accoustical room treatment, which is under way. progress, but i still dont come home and find her listening except maybe youtube vids on the computer.
i got really excited a couple of months ago when i finally got my daughter to sit and listen to a few talking heads songs, which she loves. i told her about the new stereo equipment i had been putting together over the past year and the old system was going in storage or for sale...  she said she wanted the older system!
as far as i can tell from my circle of friends, our family is much more involved in audio than most, which is quite scary for this hobby we all enjoy.

[jimdgoulding]

Well, 4 discreet channel recordings were being made in the 60's and there hasn't been much made since.  I think two channel has quite a few years left.  There is something to be said for two speakers in front of you and two speakers behind you wired out of phase.   

[JLM]

Yes  I see the MP3 craze as a good thing, it is better SQ than previous portable technology and promotes music amoung the sub 50's.  I'm not threatened by it either, especially since the recent NPR audio interviews that quoted a study showing the MP3 generation prefers higher formats & SQ systems.  And of course, it is 2 channel audio.

No  Music sales continue to decline as HT becomes more popular.  But it's quite expensive/inconvenient to do HT "right" (twice the equipment and the proper space is quite large for a family sized audience) and it's hard to have it playing as background entertainment.  Thus my interest in 2.1 HT (IMO the ideal compromise, especially if prioritizing music).

[J Fallows]

 While I must agree that there is a big gap between mp3 and good 2 channel, it's not hopeless.

 I frequent record shops and record shows. Lots of the youth/mp3 generation are always there.
If the rise in vinyl sales means anything, just listening to records is half way between mp3 and good 2 channel.
It may just be a fad, but I don't think so.

 Everyone must have some sort of 2 channel system to listen to records. I really believe that it will be a natural thing to be wanting better and better turntables, amplifiers, and speakers on which to hear them. This could all signal a real renaissance.

 Long live two channel.

 John

 

[fsimms]

Buy a Squeezebox Touch so they and you can listen to music from your computer and internet radio.  If you  wanted to go whole hog then you could even buy an ipod doc but that would be overkill.

Bob

[Warpdrv]

No question that early on I always had a love of music....   spun vinyl for many many years as a use... 
Man I miss those 8 track players...   LOL   I am 45 years old....

As soon as CD's came about I was hooked, but I hated the media as much as vinyl - always had to worry about them getting scratched and ripping them back then wasn't avail when they didn't have hard drives that a whole CD would fit on... hahahha

I prefer the digital format, but nothing shy of really high bit rate MP3, FLAC, - preferably loss-less of some kind...   
Being able to stream 2 channel music like we can now is priceless - does that make me accept bad recording or bad equipment ?!?!? - Totally Unacceptable. 

I have been streaming music ripped to my computers for almost 12 years now, starting originally with my hacked xbox wired into my networked computer...  I'd have a hard time going back to physical media...

[SoCalWJS]

The short and sweet answer is absolutely NO!

It has changed and will continue to change, but just go to any of the (growing number of) Audio shows. RMAF is the biggest, but take a look at the upcoming T.H.E. Show in Orange County, SoCal.

Last year was the first show in the area in a while, but obviously a success. This year has expanded to 2 hotels and word is they will have SIX parking lots to handle the crowd as well as a shuttle from yet another hotel after the first two hotels sold out of their reserved rooms.

I believe that many younger people are getting exposed to HQ 2 channel (in whatever format) and realize how much they are missing with MP3 and earbuds.

Each will have it's place - let's face it, it's nice to be able to take your music with you in a convenient package, but it doesn't replace the home setup.

[jsalk]

I have watched this with interest for some time and here is what I can share with you...

Our customers generally fall into two categories. 

First, a large percentage of our customers are over 50 years of age and they tend to be interested primarily in 2-channel music.  They recall their younger years spent listening to 2-channel music.  But then along came the kids and a busy life.  Music listening took a back seat to other areas in their life.  But now the kids are graduating and leaving home.  And there is more disposable income in the household.  So now it is their turn to enjoy a few personal perks and they remember how much they enjoyed listening to music earlier in life. I should point out that while this group starts with 2-channel, they often end up adding a center, surrounds and a sub so they can also enjoy HT.  But their primary initial desire is to return to great 2-channel music listening.

The second group, mainly younger customers, is primarily interested in home theater.  When they order speakers, they often indicate that the system will be used for 70% home theater and 30% music.  But an interesting thing happens when the speakers arrive.  Most often, they have not previously heard great 2-channel reproduction.  So when they play music on their HT system, they find that they enjoy 2-channel music far more than they ever imagined.  And very often, that original 70/30 mix gets turned on its head.  They end up spending a lot more time listening to 2-channel music than they ever imagined they would.  This happens all the time.

Of course the majority of the population will be content with MP3's through ear buds and will never, in their life-times, have the opportunity to hear  high quality 2-channel music reproduction.  But the number of people exposed to it will continue to grow.  And many of them will be compelled to become involved once they are exposed.

So, no, 2-channel is not dead.  I think we are currently going through a re-birth of sorts.  There are many people discovering 2-channel all over again, and even more discovering it for the first time, whether by attending an audio show, installing high quality HT speaker systems or being exposed through friends. 

Over the years, we have had many people pay us a visit to hear our speakers.  It is always interesting to watch them as the music beings to play.  A high percentage of them have never heard high-end music reproduction.  As the music begins, we often see jaws drop and big smiles come over their faces.  Once they hear it, they realize instantly they have never heard music reproduced like that and they are hooked. 

2-channel is alive and well.

- Jim

[Austin08]

Well said Jim, what you said was true. Many friends of my were introduce to high end 2 channel system either through me or from their mid-fi HT. Most of them are now a devoted 2 channel lover. My mom and my wife often said listening music in my house is more enjoyable than anywhere else. They ussually prefer their friends to  me for an audio purchase advice and most of the time, I succeeded. Oh well, most of them hate me now because they keep pouring their hard earn money into this pool. I believe many people still have a soft spot when it come to high fedelity sound. Most of them just need a little guidance to get into the right track. So my friend, 2 channel music is not death, yet.

[jimdgoulding]

Plug in and play is for pragmatists.  We romantics like the fuss and the proverbial 'glow' to our music.  The love you put in is the love you get in return.  We are older on average and detest synthetic fabrics.

[adydula]

2 ch is alive and well....the more young people I demo to, they more they like what they are hearing..
once we explain what we are trying to achieve it begins to make sense and they are hooked. 

HT is fine and movies with good surround sound can be a great experience...but listening to great 2 ch material that tries to mimic sitting in the audience, front row center or a few seats back is awesome in its own right.

I watch and listen to movies for the overall entertainment....but when it comes to real critical listening its always back to 2 ch etc...

A 2 ch setup is less expensive than a HT setup...and more folks that want really good sound will be able to better afford starting at this level.

I do  find that watching a HT concert can be a very emotional and enjoyable experience...but its just very different than listening to the same material recorded in a studio under controlled conditions.

I dont think 2 ch will go away anytime soon and hope the multichannel stuff continues to get better over time...

Alex
 

[kingdeezie]

I sure hope two channel is here to stay, because in my experiance, like others have stated, multichannel is extremely difficult to do properly, and most "high end" mass market stuff is not very good.

I am 28. I started off with HT, 5.1...7.1....Right now I have a 2.0 system, and I could not be happier.

From the Integra processor, to the Pioneer Elite reciever, nothing ever sounded great to me. All of the speakers, the subwoofers, etc, etc, etc, were difficult to optimize, and aside from the copious amounts of bass, I wasn't thrilled with the midrange and upper level micro and macro dynamics, detail, or naturalness.

I decided one day on a whim to hook up my PS3 to my PS Audio PerfectWave DAC, bypassing the processor, but still using the tube preamp and tube amps, and I couldn't believe the upgrade. Voices were more natural. I could hear lips smack, and saliva swishing and swashing if it was recorded in the track. Explosions were dynamic, and not just the rattling bass, but quick transients in the midrange. Overall, the sound quality was greatly improved.

Could a processor match the sound quality of my DAC? Possibly, but at what cost? 10K? More? With technology rapidly changing every year on the video forefront, seems a poor financial race to get into.

Did I lose surroud sound? Yes. But, my two channel set up gives me excellent depth, height, and 3D space, that I don't miss it.

YMMV.

Long live 2-channel. 

[Tone Depth]

We have an dock for iPods on our stereo, and my daughter plays her mp3s via digital out to the outboard stereo DAC. She plays her mp3s via the iPod audio out into her Bose wave radio in her bedroom, and via iTunes on the computer. She can clearly hear the differences in each system. She can also hear the difference between mp3s and Redbook CD playback, but knows Redbook format would take up much more space on her iPod.

[Wayner]

I actually believe that the "surround" sound movement is dead. I work for a local electronics store, and nobody wants surround anymore. The WAF has killed the multi-speaker systems, where the wife rules the roost, and after a few movies that are played too loud, the sub-woofers are getting a lobotomy to boot.

2 Channel, as Jim has stated is alive and well. Perhaps even taking over.....

Wayner 

[dB Cooper]

The owner of one of my hometown's two remaining hi-end audio shops told me that if he had to depend on two channel audio to survive, he would be out of business. Everything revolves around HT now. But Wayner's ear is closer to the ground than mine, and I think that is great news.

However, 2ch has something important going for it:
Headphones and portable audio. This is a huge segment of the listening market today and, unless people start growing additional ears, seems pretty safe from a marketing standpoint.

Rooms full of speakers are what killed "four channel" back in the 70s (along with generally crappy results, unless you happened to be in the one good spot). The sub/sat configurations that started to gain popularity in the 90s helped but even with small satellites, you still have to set up the room around the speakers to an extent.

Myself, I would rather listen to two good speakers than four (or more) so-so ones for a given audio budget.

[squirrel_nut]

i would like to apologize for the SUBJECT line, as it did not match the point i was trying to make. jim and a few others touched on the heart of my message.
for me, it wasnt so much that i have more disposable income and an empty nest. although i am sure this is frequently the case. from all these replies, i also find it interesting to see all the different paths people take to end up with this singular interest.

i tried to assemble a "top of the line" system back in the early 80s. i bought a couple of the best offerings from Nakamichi... a pre-amp and dragon cassette deck. these worked great. i also purchased a mcintosh amp. i went home and hooked everything up. the amp's left channel was dead. discouraged, i returned it to the dealer. they had to order a replacement. in the mean time, they gave me a loaner HK Citation amp. the HK worked for about 15 minutes before i heard crackling and a huge plume of smoke came out of the back. returned everything to the dealer for a refund and settled on mid-fi gear for the next 30 years.
i am hoping to be a little luckier this time around.

[Austin08]

i would like to apologize for the SUBJECT line, as it did not match the point i was trying to make. jim and a few others touched on the heart of my message.
for me, it wasnt so much that i have more disposable income and an empty nest. although i am sure this is frequently the case. from all these replies, i also find it interesting to see all the different paths people take to end up with this singular interest.

i tried to assemble a "top of the line" system back in the early 80s. i bought a couple of the best offerings from Nakamichi... a pre-amp and dragon cassette deck. these worked great. i also purchased a mcintosh amp. i went home and hooked everything up. the amp's left channel was dead. discouraged, i returned it to the dealer. they had to order a replacement. in the mean time, they gave me a loaner HK Citation amp. the HK worked for about 15 minutes before i heard crackling and a huge plume of smoke came out of the back. returned everything to the dealer for a refund and settled on mid-fi gear for the next 30 years.
i am hoping to be a little luckier this time around.

Squirrel-nut,

I am in this hobbie for more than 20 years and never have that kind of bad luck. Although, there were one time my CJ DAC and Krell amp went smoked not because anything wrong with them but my stupid mistake of plugged and unplugged tge ICs in the middle of the play. Well, I have learned my lesson a hard way other than that, everything are going smooth even stuffs that I got from audiogon.

[audiotom]

To the enthusiast 2 channel will never die

Multi channel processor ht receivers don't have the realism

Ideally dedicated 2 ch and ht rooms

If I had to pick one over the other, I'd go with 2 ch and forgo the extra speakers for surround (many movies still have a 2 channel soundtrack)

[soundbitten1]

Not in my place. I have seven 2 channel systems and zero surround systems.

[grantc79]

To the enthusiast 2 channel will never die

Multi channel processor ht receivers don't have the realism

Ideally dedicated 2 ch and ht rooms

If I had to pick one over the other, I'd go with 2 ch and forgo the extra speakers for surround (many movies still have a 2 channel soundtrack)

I mean no offense but this is what segment of the market is dying basically.

Allow me to share a story with you that might hit close to home Audiotom.....

Alterman audio located right around the corner from both of us just went out of business not long ago. They went out of business due to an antiquated way of thinking about audio. Audio Resource had the same thing happen not long ago. Wilson audio still exists but I'm not sure how and they are losing money hand over fist.

The reason that is is because the owners/employees of those places do not understand how the delivery of not just music but sound has changed and how it will continue to change.

I'm in the younger crowd, I'm 32, and my first major audio purchase was relatively crappy Paradigm Monitor series speakers, an Apple TV to stream MP3's from, and a projector and HUGE screen in a dedicated room.

The speakers were not great but they were good enough to make me realize MP3's sounded like crap which no other speakers had been good enough to really shine a light on for me.

By the time I sold that house and lost my dedicated room I had Martin Logans, Parasound Halo Amps, and room treatments as far as the eye can see.



But I still had my awesome projector and screen but what changed was that I was listening to lossless audio or watching hi rez Blu-Ray recordings and being thrilled by what I was seeing and hearing.

Jim is right I spent less and less time watching "movies" and more and more time listening to music but there were a lot of times that I didn't just listen to music because I wanted to watch a very well recorded concert.

You cannot tell me that Adele live at Royal Albert Hall or Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds live at Radio City is horribly recorded and sounds poor on my Integra 40.2 receiver, with HT3's, and Emotiva amplification....... It sounds freakin' amazing.


The vast majority of the younger folks getting into this hobby will NEVER own any vinyl. We got addicted to easily accessed highly portable music, realized we wanted it to sound better, and now we can have our cake and eat it too.


The reason all of the high end boutique shops with 100% analog equipment, nothing but vinyl, etc are going out of business is not because 2 channel is dead it is because when I walk in the door and tell them my equipment list and what I'm shopping for they tell me I'M STUPID BECAUSE I DON'T OWN a 2 CHANNEL ONLY SETUP AND ONLY LISTEN TO VINYL.

That is EXACTLY what happened the last time I went in both Wilson Audio and Alterman Audio which is EXACTLY why the former is dying and the latter is dead.

Is it coincidence that New Orleans Audio Video sells Sonos products and they are blowing product off the shelves?