[Ric Schultz]

We have the information on our Beta Test program on our website.  Please go to: http://www.tweakaudio.com/Beta%20Amp%20tesing%20info.html
for info.

We are dealers for ZCable products and some ZSleeves and ZCable power cords will be sent with the amp.  Please go to ZCable.com for detailed information on ZSleeves and other ZCable products.

After reading the information on our website call us if you feel you meet our initial requirements.  Please do not email as we need to talk to potential testers.  Phone # is 408-399-9708  M-F 9-5, tomorrow I will answer the phone between 10-3 PM PST.  

If you have any general questions about the amp (information not covered on the website) then this is the place to ask....then everyone can benefit from the exchange.[/url]

[JohnR]

Link not working

We are SORRY...     
 
You've requested a page that does not exist. If you've reached this page by selecting a bookmark that worked previously, it's likely the file moved to a new location.

[JoshK]

this should work....case sensitive it looks like

http://www.tweakaudio.com/Beta%20Amp%20tesing%20info.html

[Ric Schultz]

Thank you, yes, I have been working on the site since I first uploaded it because that link did not work.  I cannot seem to figure out how to change that pages title, so, I just edited the orginal post so that link now works as well.

[ekovalsky]

Glad to hear the amps are coming along.  I was worried they'd end up like the Solar HiFi amps  

I just may give you a call about the beta test, I'm very curious to see how your creation will stack up against my JRDG 302/4 at price points which differ by an order of magnitude.

The ICEpower module you are using looks nothing like those in my amp, which are labelled "ICE500A mk2"  What specific modules are you using?  I didn't think JRDG was modifying the part, but maybe they are ...

[zybar]

Ric,

I will call you tomorrow.  

I am supposed to get the new amps from DIYCable.com in early June to evaluate as well.

This would allow me to compare three digital amps (my Rowland 201's, DIY Cable - LC based, and yours).

I hope you have balanced versions for the Beta...

George

[Ric Schultz]

Eric,
These modules are the ASP500 modules.....built in switching supply...basic circuit the same.  Roland uses these same modules in their "baby" $4700 201 amps that George has.  Your modules need a separate power supply and Roland uses those monster separate switchers in the 302 whereas Acoustic Reality uses normal linear supply (toroid, diodes, caps, etc.).  

George,
Yes, I can do balanced but don't think I can send you two amps and I understand you have short speaker wires.  Talk to you tomorrow.

Ric

[Jay S]

Ric,

Given that your amp uses a switching power supply, can the same amp be used with either 110v or 220v?  

What do you think are the pros/cons of using a switching power supply in an ICE power-based amp?

Also, did you get a chance to listen to the eAR Two Mk2 while you had it?

Thanks, and regards,

- Jay

[zybar]

Had a nice long talk with Ric and he is going to send me a pair of balanced mono amps to audition.

I am hoping to receive them in early June.

As previously stated, I will be comparing the following amps in my system:

1.  EVS Monos (based on ICE)
2.  Rowland 201 monos (based on ICE)
3.  DIY Cable stereo amps - vertical biamp (based on LC)

I realize that the DIY has the advantage of biamping my RM 40's, but I will do the best I can to make my observations.

George

[Ric Schultz]

Jay,
Yes, the amp can be used universally...either 110 or 220.

The execution of a supply is more important than the type....at least that is what I feel at this moment...he he....obviously the switching type is more effecient and smaller.   The only way to know what kind of supply would be absolutely best would be to take the module with no power supply and make the worlds best linear and switching supplies and A/B them....(we are talking the absolute worlds best components/circuits/execution for each supply....multi-thousand $ supplies).  Then you MIGHT have some idea which kind is better.

Never listened to the eAR amp I had, just sat in its box till I sold it.

[Ric Schultz]

George,
I hope you will first A/B all amps not in biamp mode (using just one channel from LC module amp).  Then you will hear the difference between the amps....then do biamp mode with LC modules to see what difference biamping does.   This is the only way you can make a fair comparison of the amps.  Should be fun!

Good talking to you today.

Ric

[zybar]

Ric,

Of course I will do that.

Don't worry, I will run a fair comparison.

George

[ekovalsky]

George, you need TacT and Bel Canto amps and then you can publish the definitive review of available "digital" amps  

Rich Maez (technical guru at JRDG) told me at CES they had adapted their highest end amps from linear (and battery power) to switch-mode power, based on listening tests and reliability.  They are still offering expensive upgrades to the Model 8Ti/9Ti which replace the original linear or DC power supplies with the switch-mode units from the 300 series.  

I had always thought the difference between the 201 and 302 series was the big Piltron transformer between the AC mains and the power supply, plus the anti-resonant chassis.  Didn't realize the modules were different and the 201 uses the stock B&O Powerhouse power supply...

[_scotty_]

Ric, how does a switch mode power supply compare to a conventional supply designed for low impedance at radio frequencies and high speed high current power delivery to the amp circuit. Or more specifically how many joules of energy are available to operate the amplifier circuit from your switch mode power supply.                    Scotty

[Jay S]

Ric,

Glad to hear that the amp can be used in 110v or 220v.  I'll keep my eye on the results from the beta test.  

Scotty has a good question.  Its also been said that SMPS tend to be very noisy.  In your modded 963a you saw the need to put in a linear power supply for the dac and output stage.  

Thanks!

- Jay

[Ric Schultz]

Thank God I am not an engineer.  I am obsessive enough as it is!  So, cannot tell you about Joules or even much about jewels (my wife knows all about the later..he he).  B&O gives out no specs or circuit diagrams other than what is on the website and on the spec sheets....basically the amp current limits at 35 amps!  This is where the protection comes in.  

The only reason I use a separate power tranny on the 963 is to give higher voltage for my output stage and complete isolation of the DAC from all other supplies.  If the switching supply had plus and minus 15 and completely separate 5 volt supplies for both the analog and digital feeds for the DAC then I would just tweak the switching supply.  I personally think that switching supplies are just different, not necessarily worse than linear supplies.  The ones in cheaper players however are made with not very good parts, more filtering then they need, etc.  Switchers operate way away from 60HZ so can offer more ripple rejection than normal linear supplies...as I said, I believe execution is more important than what kind of supply one uses. Certainly there are ways to filter noise with multiple pole filters, ZSleeve technology, etc.

What matters to me is how something sounds.... I hope you will let the amps sound determine whether it is good or bad and not by what kind of supply it is using.  Linn uses switching supplies in their gear and so does Roland (both on purpose! feeling it is superior) and so does Meitner in his commercial ADCs and DACs and in the consumer DACs and preamps.  They sound very good!  Also Serge Schmidlin of Audio Consulting thinks that a tweaked out switching supply is supreme good.

A lot of things have "been said" about things on the net.  Lots by engineer types who don't listen.   Always best to keep your mind open to what can REALLY be done as far as how something works in audio.....anotherwords how it actually performs (sounds) when implemented to the HIGHEST DEGREE......I mean look what has "been said" for years about digital....that it could never sound good.  In fact, even 16/44 done REALLY well can sound marvelous.  And digital sound has gotten better and better and better as we figure out how to make it work (it is very complicated and has a much longer signal path than analog).  

I am not saying that the switching supply as designed by B&O or the mods that I do to it make it state of the art.....no way.....state of the art is way, way, way out there.  Multithousand $ switching supply?...you bet....just ask Serge.  Lots of what Peter does in his super expensive versions of the eAR amp are just better and beefier parts in his linear supplies....so the same thing applies to linear supplies.....the better the execution, the better the sound.

The trouble with theories are.....well they are just that....only thoughts....the reality that we experience through our 6 senses....(yes, maybe even more) is what matters to me....the mind looks for reasons but tends to get caught up in being right when it "decides" something.  Best to let your senses and heart "decide".

End of Semon,
God Bless.

[Jay S]

Amen!  

From the discussion so far, it looks like there are 3 clear advantages of a switching power supply:

- lighter weight
- multi volt (can be used in 110v or 220v)
- potentially better ripple (noise) rejection

Your point is very valid: execution and the performance of the end-product is more important than the basic underlying technology.  Its just like the old solid-state vs tubes (and now digital...) debate.

[cjr888]

I am not saying that the switching supply as designed by B&O or the mods that I do to it make it state of the art.....no way.....state of the art is way, way, way out there. Multithousand $ switching supply?...you bet....just ask Serge. Lots of what Peter does in his super expensive versions of the eAR amp are just better and beefier parts in his linear supplies....so the same thing applies to linear supplies.....the better the execution, the better the sound.

The trouble with theories are.....well they are just that....only thoughts....the reality that we experience through our 6 senses....(yes, maybe even more) is what matters to me....the mind looks for reasons but tends to get caught up in being right when it "decides" something. Best to let your senses and heart "decide".

Probably one of the most refreshing responses from a vendor/manufacturer I've read in some time.  

There are a few that should be claiming SOTA, though so many do unwarranted.  Nice to hear something along the lines of 'it sounds good to me, and hopefully you like it too -- either way its a great value.'

At the price point you're offering, and knowing the technology, even without hearing the amplifier, I can only assume it will be a tremendous value.

I have a couple of questions to you, or other users of ICEPower amplifiers.  I had an EAR2, but no longer....

1) I had originally paired the EAR2 with with speakers in the 84-87db range and typically of lower nomimal impedance -- anyone out there used any ICEPower amplifier with high sensitivity speakers or those with much higher nomimal impedance?  Thoughts?

2) Ric - are you planning on offering one model, or considering any models with upgraded parts, volume control included, etc?

3) When you mention Serge, are you speaking of Serge Schmidlin?

[_scotty_]

Ric, are B&Os ICE Power modules with self contained switch-mode power supplies more cost effective to base an amplifier on than building an amp with a conventional supply? If so, will retail price reflect the savings compared to an amp with big transformer and massive  storage capacitors? It appears from the information on your website that you have
eliminated about 30lbs of power supply compared to a similarly constructed amp with a conventional power supply. This a considerable advantage from a shipping weight standpoint alone. Do the ICE power modules you are using exhibit less ringing or oscillation on transients than
the other type of ICE power modules without the self contained power supply.

[Ric Schultz]

I cannot imagine why an Ice Power amp would not be just as good on higher efficiency and higher ohm speakers.  The output impedance is so low that it can drive anything (well almost).  They are very low noise so there will be no hiss nor hum.

There will be one model, however if someone really needs mono blocks (for short speaker wires) then I can just put one module in the box.  The amps are already dual mono so there would be no advantage except shorter speaker wires and a separate power cord for each channel.  There will be optional built-in attenuators but only one input.

Of course, there will be "better" versions down the road....this is high end audio....we don't believe in finality...he he.

Yes, Schmidlin.

The modules with the switching supply are quite pricey so there is not much savings in money over building an amp with normal supplies....there are less parts to buy and less labor but I was going to charge the same for the amp whether it had a switcher or not.

Though I think that having power supplies as close as possible is good for low impedance delivery, I don't believe that a built-in power supply is necessarily better if you use very short hardwired external supplies using the best wire and solder.  Both types of Ice modules (switcher and not) have caps on the board and bypass caps.  I choose this module because it actually sounded better than the other one (at least the way I had it hooked up).  A tweaked out switcher will beat a non tweaked out linear.  A tweaked out linear will beat the stock switcher....both tweaked to the ABSOLUTE state of the art max?...no one knows as no one has ever done it.