[Scottdazzle]

Saeyedoc,

I suggest you try to listen to a pair of VMPS RM30II before you make up your mind.  They are an extraordinary speaker, well within your price range.

Disclosure: I love mine so much I became an owner-agent, but there are plenty of happy VMPS owners on AC besides me.

Good luck with whatever you choose. Your price range is a real sweet spot in the speaker market. 

Scott

[Scottdazzle]

while i have never heard the rm30's, i can wouch for the excellence of their bigger brothers, the rm40's.  if cut from the same cloth, (and everyone who's heard 'em says they are), then it would certainly be a fine choice...

doug s.

Doug,

You've got to come down some time and listen!

Scott

[wilsynet]

I suggest you try to listen to a pair of VMPS RM30II before you make up your mind.  They are an extraordinary speaker, well within your price range.

Given that you're an owner-agent of VMPS, surely this must violate the industry participant rule against promotion and advertisement ...

[doug s.]

I suggest you try to listen to a pair of VMPS RM30II before you make up your mind.  They are an extraordinary speaker, well within your price range.

Given that you're an owner-agent of VMPS, surely this must violate the industry participant rule against promotion and advertisement ...

did you miss the part where scott said:

"...Disclosure: I love mine so much I became an owner-agent, but there are plenty of happy VMPS owners on AC besides me...."

and, did you miss his tagline beneath his avatar, where it says:

"ModWright, VMPS, & WyWires owner agent in DC area"

 

doug s.

[Letitroll98]

The above posts came over from the $3-5k/pr, Floorstander or Monitors? thread.  The issue detailed in them puts me at a bit of a quandary, so I'd like the members to weigh in with their thoughts.  This thread may very soon go to the IGWB, but before that happens perhaps we can be a little productive here.

First of all, lets look at the site policy for Industry Participants quoted here:
"You are permitted to post about topics that do not mention your product or services anywhere on the site. You are welcome to respond in threads discussing your product, for the purpose of providing additional or clarifying information. You are not, however, permitted to advertise or promote(*) your product or services, except in the areas of the site designated for this purpose.

(*) Material such as prices, unsolicited and repeated updates to a thread, and so on, is considered advertising or promotion, as opposed to providing information in response for AC members."

As you can see, Scott, Doug, and Wilson all have valid viewpoints on interpretation of the rule here.  I've met Scott and he's a perfect gentleman, obviously trying to follow the rules, he has his signature sorted out properly, isn't overtly promoting or advertising, and has included a disclaimer.  However he has violated the area I underlined in that no one had yet mentioned VMPS speakers in the thread, thus there was nothing to reply to.  This is what Wilson was referring to and the point that Doug failed to mention in his reply.  Yet another person, lets call him Doug just for purposes of illustration, might interpret that the question had been asked prima fascia when the OP asked about speaker suggestions between $3-5k.  And yet another person, lets call him Wilson, might interpret Scott's offer to have Doug come and hear the VMPS speakers as an overt advertisement.  Another person, lets call him Letitroll98, might question where the line between industry participant and enthusiast falls.  Of course anyone deriving their livelihood is a participant, but what about dabblers, lets call them Scott, how do they figure in.  Does everyone who has sold a piece of equipment on Agon have to show a P&L?   

Now, for a short time I would like to hear members opinions of the above.  Any baiting or recrimination will send the thread to it's ultimate end that much sooner.  So please be civil.     

[JohnR]

I think it's a bit of a stretch to call an owner-agent an Industry Participant. We seem to have a couple of people on the board now that are for one reason or another determined to make an issue out of this kind of thing.

[Letitroll98]

Thanks John, exactly my question.

[HT cOz]

Since this is an open conversation.  Where would an industry participant talk about their products on Audio Circle? Audio Industry Discussion, New Product Reviews, Press Releases, Product Support Threads are all archived and Industry Ads is shut down.  Those actions set the tone for the entire site and I think people are reacting by calling out any industry participation that may cross the absolute line. 

If you don't have a sponsor circle, I think you are out of luck.  This coming from a guy who completely got his start here at AudioCircle and long after I tire of doing anything commercially which will probably be sooner rather than later will still be here posting and having fun. 

The only idea I have about the above is a section like AC Merchants in which merchants are registered.  A registered merchant could have a child board or something less formal than a full blown board but more formal than Industry Ads.

I have to say that I think very carefully before posting because I want to live within the spirit of AC.  Lately I think even more carefully given the state of all the Industry Circles being removed.

Kind regards,
Robert

[wilsynet]

What's the difference between an owner-agent and a dealer?

Scott represents three brands, and he has a financial interest in the success of the brands he represents and makes a markup or some fee on sales.

If I privately sell a turntable from my private collection of audio gear, that doesn't make me an industry participant.  If I directly source my equipment from the manufacturer/distributor or broker sales on their behalf, and my intention is to sell multiple units of the same, then I think that means industry participation.

Further, an invitation to come listen is not much different than a dealer offering a prospective buyer an audition.  Ever been to a dealer who runs the shop from his house?  Ususlly audio dealers follow a wholesale model, but there is such a thing as an agency model of commerce.  Make no mistake: an owner-agent is an agent, and an agent has a vested financial interest.

Having said all that, if the owner of the site chooses to define owner-agents as non-industry participants, then by definition the issue is resolved.  I would think then that the consequences of such guidance would mean that Scott is free to comment on any thread with his recommendation of VMPS speakers as if he is an ordinary member.

My two cents.

[JohnR]

The only idea I have about the above is a section like AC Merchants in which merchants are registered.  A registered merchant could have a child board or something less formal than a full blown board but more formal than Industry Ads.

Well, that's the intent. I'm somewhat loathe to go ahead with it until it's automated. On the other hand, that is taking far too long.

[JohnR]

Having said all that, if the owner of the site chooses to define owner-agents as non-industry participants, then by definition the issue is resolved.  I would think then that the consequences of such guidance would mean that Scott is free to comment on any thread with his recommendation of VMPS speakers as if he is an ordinary member.

As much as you would like everything to be to your exact specification/satisfaction, I'm afraid it's not possible. There is a level of tolerance, and we initiate and escalate the requests and responses as we feel necessary. Few people see the entire history of any one situation.

Thanks...

[charmerci]

When Scott first posted it - I didn't think much of it. Just another post.

When it became an issue, I sided with Scott because he clearly stated his position, i.e. that he loved the speakers so much he decided to sell them.

In reading the position of the other side on this thread, I can understand their position also.

At this point, I think it's really a borderline issue in that it could go either way. I think that in this case, it was a very soft sell, one time case but that if Scott posts like this more often, I can also see deleting the posts in the future.

[wilsynet]

I have deleted this post because it wasn't all that useful.  Will post later when I have something useful to post.

[JLM]

I enjoy and highly value input/interaction from manufacturers, retailers, reviewers, (any "insiders").  It's what makes the internet so valuable to customers.  Message boards like AC allows me to sit in on the conversations of others with these folks which can be most enlightening.  As long as they identify themselves I have no qualm and would really hate to see them sent to the lepers colony.  Shutting out the circles to them would lose maybe a 1/3rd of the value of AC to me.

[Scottdazzle]

Somehow I didn't notice that my comment had resulted in controversy. My response to Saeyedoc was intended as an encouragement to him to give those speakers a listen if he could because they seemed to fit his parameters.  I made no effort whatsoever to sell them.  In fact, I am not authorized to sell outside of my little corner of the earth and have no idea where Saeyedoc lives.  You may look at other posts of mine to see that I have made similar recommendations for speakers that I have no connection with (e.g. Vapor and Daedalus).

I have been and hope to be a member of AC in good standing. I do not want to cross any lines which is why I was so careful to indicate that my recommendation be accompanied by a disclaimer. I have not and will not represent myself to be anything but what I am: an audio hobbyist and music lover who wants to share my enthusiasm for high quality music and gear. I do not care if I never sell anything if it would violate that premise! I have a comfortable pension and do not rely on audio to make a buck.

Fwiw, there are some other AC members who in my opinion trample all over that fine line between enthusiasm and commerce. I promise to stay very aware of that line.

I apologize to anyone who misunderstood where I'm coming from.  I will do what I can to avoid any such misunderstandings in the future.

Scott

[Scottdazzle]

Given that you're an owner-agent of VMPS, surely this must violate the industry participant rule against promotion and advertisement ...

And one more brief comment. Doug S is a friend who lives within driving distance from my house. My invitation to him should not be interpreted by anyone as anything but an invitation to a friend.

[wilsynet]

Scott, I think you're a swell guy.  In fact, I've even bought something from you, and you were a total prince throughout the transaction.  I don't have a problem with you personally.  I don't think there was any bad behavior intended and I think you are totally above board.

The question I posed was as much intellectual as anything, which is that I don't think there's a material distinction between an owner-agent and a dealer.  Which in fact, if I interpret your statement correctly (correct me if I'm wrong), you said "I am not authorized to sell outside of my little corner of the earth", which is what a dealer does?

[Scottdazzle]

I want to draw a line between my enthusiasm for a component and any potential personal gain. In this case, there is a very clear line.

[wilsynet]

There is absolutely no desire to impugn your integrity.  This is really just an exchange of ideas for me, not a personal attack.

I know that personally you are drawing a very clear line, but purely from an intellectual perspective, don't most dealers have a great deal of enthusiasm for the lines they represent?  In your personal opinion, what's difference between an owner-agent and a dealer?

Is it the distinction between a wholesale model of commerce versus an agency model of commerce?  For example, in the wholesale model, a retailer purchases the goods first from the manufacturer or distributor and then sells it on to the consumer.  In the agency model, the manufacturer or distributor sets the price, and the agent gets a commission in exchange for facilitating the sale.

Is an owner-agent basically someone who used to own the product and had no other commercial ties, but then decides later to enter into an agency agreement?

[Scottdazzle]

Is an owner-agent basically someone who used to own the product and had no other commercial ties, but then decides later to enter into an agency agreement? Wilsynet

Yes, that's me to a tee, except that I do have a bit of discretion regarding prices.