New third party app for Logitech Touch enables USB output and up to 192K

hibuckhobby · « **Reply #40 on:** 19 Apr 2012, 04:27 pm »

At least on my unit...when I am hooked up to the coaxial digital out...it shows the Flac files (under 'more information') running at full resolution. When using the usb to the Emotiva, it says they are being downsampled to 705kbs from the higher rate. It still shows it being a 24/96 file, but it clearly is having something done to it. I tried the same thing with hi rez aiff files and got the same response. I'm using a "good" digital coax cable and a low cost usb cable.
Hibuck...

firedog · « **Reply #41 on:** 19 Apr 2012, 05:56 pm »

Quote from: hibuckhobby on 19 Apr 2012, 04:27 pm

At least on my unit...when I am hooked up to the coaxial digital out...it shows the Flac files (under 'more information') running at full resolution. When using the usb to the Emotiva, it says they are being downsampled to 705kbs from the higher rate. It still shows it being a 24/96 file, but it clearly is having something done to it. I tried the same thing with hi rez aiff files and got the same response. I'm using a "good" digital coax cable and a low cost usb cable.
Hibuck...

That reading you see of kbs doesn't mean anything. It varies according to the level of compression and length of the track. Nothing to do with the bit depth and resolution of your file. 2 different things, don't mix them up.

gregcss · « **Reply #42 on:** 20 Apr 2012, 01:43 pm »

With this mod the sound is certainly different than TT 3.0. The highs seems more detailed, kind of more 'in your face'. I'll have to switchback to TT 3.0 after another day or so to compare. I am only using the digital coax output.

Has any plopped TT 3.0 on top of the EDO mod? If so what are are you impressions?

hibuckhobby · « **Reply #43 on:** 20 Apr 2012, 01:57 pm »

Quote from: firedog on 19 Apr 2012, 05:56 pm

That reading you see of kbs doesn't mean anything. It varies according to the level of compression and length of the track. Nothing to do with the bit depth and resolution of your file. 2 different things, don't mix them up.

OK...first to admit I'm learning still learning. I'm am curious however as to what is converting the flac files down to a lower kbs and why? It does it when the usb output is used, not when the coaxial is used.
Hibuck....

TJHUB · « **Reply #44 on:** 20 Apr 2012, 03:03 pm »

Quote from: hibuckhobby on 19 Apr 2012, 04:27 pm

At least on my unit...when I am hooked up to the coaxial digital out...it shows the Flac files (under 'more information') running at full resolution. When using the usb to the Emotiva, it says they are being downsampled to 705kbs from the higher rate. It still shows it being a 24/96 file, but it clearly is having something done to it. I tried the same thing with hi rez aiff files and got the same response. I'm using a "good" digital coax cable and a low cost usb cable.
Hibuck...

I'm no genius at this stuff, but I also own a little Linux computer known as an "Alix." The Touch isn't much different than the Alix in that both are basically Linux computers. As such they function much the same way.

When I was running the Alix, I had a USB DAC that was only capable of 16/44 resolutions. The Alix was playing my 24/192 files, but the DAC was still playing fine. So I asked the gurus why this was happening. They said that the ALSA (I think) driver as part of the music playback can see the USB device attached. It knows it's input capabilities, and adjusts its internal conversion as such. I'm guessing when using the USB output of the Touch, its ALSA driver knows it needs to down sample the file for playback. Alternately, when using the Touch's other outputs, the ALSA driver has no idea as to what's attached, and it just plays whatever the file is capable of.

firedog · « **Reply #45 on:** 20 Apr 2012, 06:26 pm »

Quote from: hibuckhobby on 20 Apr 2012, 01:57 pm

OK...first to admit I'm learning still learning. I'm am curious however as to what is converting the flac files down to a lower kbs and why? It does it when the usb output is used, not when the coaxial is used.
Hibuck....

Maybe I don't understand what you are saying. Where are you getting the kbs readings? Do you get the same kbs for every song on a given album or different rates for each song (assuming they are encoded the same way)?

If you are getting the reading from the "more info" line in the Touch, it doesn't mean anything. It's an average and changes from track to track.

hibuckhobby · « **Reply #46 on:** 20 Apr 2012, 09:00 pm »

It's under "more info" and you see what the type of file is.
Then scroll down a couple lines and you see if it it converted
and to what kbs. That info changes depending on the output
selected...on the same song.
Hibuck....

Russtafarian · « **Reply #47 on:** 20 Apr 2012, 11:56 pm »

Quote

At least on my unit...when I am hooked up to the coaxial digital out...it shows the Flac files (under 'more information') running at full resolution. When using the usb to the Emotiva, it says they are being downsampled to 705kbs from the higher rate.

After playing around with this last night, I also found this to be true with my Emotiva XDA-1 DAC. With USB, 16/44, 24/44, and 24/48 files played back at full bit rate. 24/88, 24/96, and 24/192 played back at 705kb, much lower than their original bitrate. With coax, all files played back at full bitrate including 24/88, 24/96, and 24/192 files.

After comparing USB and coax for a while, I have to eat my earlier words and say that coax does sound more refined with a denser, smoother ambiance. USB is still very good, but a bit more forward and coarser sounding.

I suppose I could have talked myself into liking the higher bandwidth coax connection more. I'll keep listening/comparing and eventually the more favorable connection will make itself known. For now, with my DAC, for this election cycle, during this moon phase, between the hours 9pm and 12am Pacific time, I think coax sounds better.

eclein · « **Reply #48 on:** 21 Apr 2012, 01:16 am »

Quote from: Russtafarian on 19 Apr 2012, 04:22 pm

Are you saying the Touch is downconverting the FLAC file based on the Emotiva's usb input. That makes sense but how can you tell that it's doing that?

Even if the usb connection is downconverting, it still sounds better than the full bitrate coax connection. I confess I'm using $5 usb and coax cables. I guess I need to start trying better cables to see how that impacts the sound.

A quick aside to input about the impact using good cables has, if your able to easily hear changes in your system you will benefit from trying different cables of all kinds I have found. You don't have to spend a fortune either to hear nice results.

firedog · « **Reply #49 on:** 21 Apr 2012, 01:28 am »

Quote from: TJHUB on 20 Apr 2012, 03:03 pm

I'm no genius at this stuff, but I also own a little Linux computer known as an "Alix." The Touch isn't much different than the Alix in that both are basically Linux computers. As such they function much the same way.

When I was running the Alix, I had a USB DAC that was only capable of 16/44 resolutions. The Alix was playing my 24/192 files, but the DAC was still playing fine. So I asked the gurus why this was happening. They said that the ALSA (I think) driver as part of the music playback can see the USB device attached. It knows it's input capabilities, and adjusts its internal conversion as such. I'm guessing when using the USB output of the Touch, its ALSA driver knows it needs to down sample the file for playback. Alternately, when using the Touch's other outputs, the ALSA driver has no idea as to what's attached, and it just plays whatever the file is capable of.

The Touch and LMS work differently. The kernel on the standard Touch "tells" the server that it can only accept files up to 96k. So if you play 192 the server downsamples it first. With the new app the kernel is re-written so that the Touch tells the LMS it can handle 192. Therefore it is sent as 192. It should also be output as 192.

For the app to work, you have to be setup so that you are sending FLAC in native mode.

If your DAC USB input is limited and your DAC changes the stream b/c it can't handle it, that's something else.

DZetye · « **Reply #50 on:** 22 Apr 2012, 03:38 pm »

I am having trouble taking advantage of this mod. My squeezebox sends the 192 file to my DAC for playback but my DAC reads it as a standard 44.1 file and playback sounds like a record playing at too slow a speed. Anybody know what is wrong?

golfugh · « **Reply #51 on:** 22 Apr 2012, 04:43 pm »

Quote from: DZetye on 22 Apr 2012, 03:38 pm

I am having trouble taking advantage of this mod. My squeezebox sends the 192 file to my DAC for playback but my DAC reads it as a standard 44.1 file and playback sounds like a record playing at too slow a speed. Anybody know what is wrong?

You must set the following:

FLAC Native
MP3 <greyed out>
PCM FLAC

DZetye · « **Reply #52 on:** 28 Apr 2012, 06:09 pm »

How do I get into the Logitech Media Server setup menu? Anybody?

golfugh · « **Reply #53 on:** 28 Apr 2012, 06:22 pm »

Open Logitech MS webpage...right click on the symbol at the bottom right of your screen

Once open...go to the bottom right corner and click on the setup, it opens in a separate page

The software needs to be installed at the Touch

DZetye · « **Reply #54 on:** 28 Apr 2012, 07:06 pm »

For some reason I can't find the setup button. I am opening the control panel for Logitech media server and I see some menus but no symbol or setup at the bottom of any of the screens. Can you tell what I am doing wrong? Thanks for the help

Russtafarian · « **Reply #55 on:** 28 Apr 2012, 07:15 pm »

From the Logitech Media Server page, click on "Settings" below the playlist in the lower right hand corner of the screen

DZetye · « **Reply #56 on:** 29 Apr 2012, 11:36 am »

Got it. Thanks. 24/192 is working and sounds wonderful with the app.

adhesiv · « **Reply #57 on:** 30 Apr 2012, 08:39 am »

Does this mod allow up to 24/192 on the Coax output as well?

I'm still bummed none of these mods work on the Transporter.

golfugh · « **Reply #58 on:** 30 Apr 2012, 11:41 am »

krikor · « **Reply #59 on:** 1 May 2012, 03:24 pm »

I've been following this thread (and the much longer one at the slimdevices forum) with interest, but my system was in a state of turmoil until a couple weeks ago (amp issues finally rectified... no pun intended). I've been using TT 3.0 but experienced drop outs at the beginning of tracks after I got everything hooked back up, so I did a factory reset on my Touch and figured I'd give the EDO applet a try instead... never got around to it and have been listening to just the stock configured Touch up until last night (though with an Elpac linear power supply).

I decided to first load up TT 3.0 again and listened for about an hour. Then I loaded up EDO and listened for awhile without TT 3.0 running (used the "tt -r" function). Next I ran TT 3.0 along with EDO and everything seemed to work just fine (bear in mind that I am using a Wyred4Sound DAC2 via coax... cannot use the USB since this DAC requires drivers for asynchronous operation). Also, I'm only using 16/44.1 source material.

The following are only initial impressions based on one night of brief listening. I prefer to evaluate over much longer periods and then make changes to the system, but I thought some of you might be interested in these snap judgements and huge generalizations.

#1 - Stock Configuration
Though happy to have music back after re-assembling my amps, I had a niggling dissapointment in the sound quality with the stock-configured Touch. I didn't really associate it to the Touch, figuring the new amp boards needed some time to get their groove on. Music just wasn't holding my attention, found myself clicking through tracks and then getting up to do something else while listening or (worse) seeing what reality-show drivel my wife was watching in the other room (she doesn't watch it often, but every now and then gets sucked in).

#2 - TT 3.0 Only
So what does one do after a weekend of listening to every manner of system at an audio fest (AKFest to be specific)? Go home, listen to your system and hear how it compares of course. That's what I did last night and again I was bugged that I wasn't getting the sound I was used to out of the stock Touch so I quickly loaded up TT 3.0. AHHHHHHHH, much better. Darker background and a more open sound stage. Edginess on vocals (sibilant and plosive lyrics) were taken down a notch and I could hear more air around singers and instruments. Everything was flowing, my feets was tapping and I breathed a sigh of relief.

#3 - EDO with TT 3.0 Disabled (tt -r)
Loading the EDO applet is a breeze (thanks to Triode for this great app!). Quickly noticed the same dark background and fantastic sense of the soundstage... perhaps even a bit better than TT 3.0? Highs sounded even smoother, but I daresay it could be a touch too smooth for my tastes. Little cues and inflections in vocals and instruments were not as apparent. It seemed to take away some of the vibrancy and immediacy in the sound, creating (in extreme terms) a subdued or restrained feel. OK, shoot me for getting too audiophilesque in my descriptions.

#4 - EDO with TT 3.0 Enabled (all default options)
Reboot and bingo, the sound became a perfect blend of the two tweaks. My mind playing wishful thinking tricks? Could be. This combo had all the openness and clarity of them on their own but with that upper frequency vibrancy back in the mix. And it was accomplishing this and extracting great detail without any apparent harshness or stridency, a bit of which I heard with TT 3.0 on its own.

Again, these are all just initial snap impressions. I need to listen to each configuration over a longer period to really know which I prefer. Something I didn't mention is bass quality. I thought configurations 2-4 were all comparable and superior to the stock configuration... deeper, better tonality and more control.

Computers are supposed to make life easier, right? I'm amazed at all the possible options, configurations and factors throughout that chain that can have an impact. Makes apples-to-apples comparisons and duplication of what someone else experiences nearly impossible. Two other factors that I may evaluate:

Messing with the TT 3.0 buffer size (it defaults to 20K when EDO is also activated so you have to go back in and reset it... I did my listening at 4K but not sure what this may do with hi-rez material)
Server vs. Touch FLAC decoding (I set FLAC stream to native for use with EDO but did not do any back-to-back comparisons streaming PCM instead)

The fun continues