New third party app for Logitech Touch enables USB output and up to 192K

Wayne1 · « **on:** 11 Apr 2012, 08:55 pm »

"The app should add support of the following to your Squeezebox Touch:
- External USB dacs using either USB audio class 1 or 2 protocols [USB 1 dacs normally state they support up to 96k sample rates, USB 2 dacs normally state up to 192k]
- Support of 176 and 192k playback via the standard digital output"

More information here

mhconley · « **Reply #1 on:** 11 Apr 2012, 09:01 pm »

Very cool - thanks! I know what I am doing this evening.

Martin

Phil A · « **Reply #2 on:** 11 Apr 2012, 09:03 pm »

Very interesting. Let us know how it worked out.

Wayne1 · « **Reply #3 on:** 11 Apr 2012, 09:50 pm »

The installation of the app is very easy.

Just go to third party apps in the menu on the Touch. Deselect only approved apps.

Touch Enhanced digital output. It will download and install the app. You then have to select digital only.

It will shut off the analog output section of the Touch.

I think this is a HUGE app for the Touch. Now you can natively playback all your flac files up to 192K.

Currently the app will not work with wav or aiff. I believe the next update will allow those files to work.

sfig · « **Reply #4 on:** 11 Apr 2012, 10:23 pm »

I will be looking forward to the next release then when it supports AIFF. Thanks for the tip!

AB · « **Reply #5 on:** 11 Apr 2012, 11:41 pm »

This is very cool.
Wayne are you using this now?

Wayne1 · « **Reply #6 on:** 11 Apr 2012, 11:58 pm »

I do have it running on my modded Touch into a modded TubeDAC-11 right now.

Wayne1 · « **Reply #7 on:** 12 Apr 2012, 02:05 pm »

Here is a little more detail about the app from John Swenson:

"This is an applet which allows you to select which output to use, including USB and an enhanced S/PDIF. In addition it installs a program which supports the 24 bit format used by USB DACs and installs a new kernel which supports USB Audio Class 2 which enables 176.4 and 192 playback.

Installing the applet installs the new kernel and drivers.

This system will allow you to use asynchronous USB DACs in either class 1 (full speed mode) or class 2 (high speed mode). If you have an async DAC which uses just class 1 (full speed, goes up to 96 max) then you will need a USB 2.0 hub as well. There is a bug in the Touch's hardware which prevents async from working properly in full speed mode, but it works fine in high speed mode. The hub talks to the Touch in high speed mode and to the DAC in full speed mode, thus getting around the bug. If you have a DAC which will work in high speed mode, just use that directly, the hub is not needed. So far I have had very good results with a $5 hub from my local computer store. Nobody has yet found a SQ difference with different hubs.

Note: this does NOT work with USB devices which require their own proprietary driver such as the M2Tech devices, it only works with DACs that use either USB audio class 1 or class 2.

This applet will also work with DACs which are not asynch but do run in 24 bit mode. Internally the Touch uses a 4 byte 24 bit format, but almost all USB DACs which will handle 24 bit data use a 3 byte 24bit format. So even if you had an adaptive mode 24 bit DAC you could not previously use it with the Touch be cause it used a different 24 bit format. This applet will properly convert the internalo format to the one used by the USB DAC.

In addition to USB support Triode (the developer) has figured out how to make the S/PDIF output work at 176.4 and 192, this is included as well. The applet gives you a choice of: the original digital out, new digital out which goes up to 192, and a USB DAC if one is present. If you choose either the new digital out or the USB out the analog and headphone jacks are inoperative, you HAVE to choose the original out in order to turn on the analog outs.

When using a USB DAC or the new output the TOUCH tells the server what sample rates it supports, thus the downsampling which happens in the server will automatically do the right thing.

There are a few limitations:
1) the USB DAC MUST be pluged in and turned on when you boot the Touch, you cannot "hot plug" a USB DAC. To start using a USB DAC the procedure is to unplug power on the Touch, plug in the USB DAC, make sure it's on, plug in the power to the Touch which boots. Select the USB DAC, the Touch will reboot after which it will be connected to the USB DAC. If you turn off or unplug the USB DAC, you must reboot the Touch after the DAC is plugged back in or turned on.

2) when playing 176.4 or 192 files you MUST be streaming FLAC. The file on the DISK can be whatever you want, but you must have the file types set to stream FLAC when playing the file type. This limitation is just for 176.4 and 192 files. For 44.1-96 files you can use whatever streaming format you wish. This applies to both USB and S/PDIF.

This restriction is due to how the server sends sample rate information to the Touch. For FLAC the information is sent in the FLAC stream itself and the spec knows about up to 192. The Touch's FLAC decoder will use the sample rate in the stream to set the sample rate in the Touch. All other streaming formats need a separate command from the server to the Touch to specify the sample rate, and at this point that command only knows about up to 96, so the only way to tell the Touch the stream is at 192 is to use FLAC as the streaming format. This will change at some future point but thats the way it is for now.

This applet from Triode works very well for almost everybody who has tried it (I think there is one DAC that didn't work) and is quite easy to use. If you have a USB DAC and a Touch give it a try.

BTW if you are careful it is possible to use this with Soundcheck's TT3.0, some of the priorities do not work with USB and the default buffer is too small (I like to run it at 5000). For the USB DAC I have found TT3.0 does improve things.

John S."

I have been using the app to play back quite a few SACD rips through the coax output of the Touch and I find the improvements to be quite startling. SOX does a very good job in downconverting but letting the full resolution through is quite eye-opening.

I have not tried the USB output at this time.

I highly recommend this app.

TJHUB · « **Reply #8 on:** 12 Apr 2012, 02:45 pm »

I'm a little surprised at this. The Touch is a decent source, but it definitely has its limitations on performance. One area of concern is the processing power of the Touch. It's pretty weak. As such, many have found that letting the server do the FLAC decoding and streaming PCM to the the Touch offloads the Touch's processor and allows it to sound cleaner. I have found the Touch can sound a bit fuzzy when it's doing all the work, so I too let my server computer do the decoding. So it only makes sense that enabling the Touch to decode 24/192 files is even harder on the processor, which should cause it to perform even worse. Maybe this is why Logitech limited it's abilities to 24/96 in the first place?

Wayne: Have you ever compared this for yourself?

mca · « **Reply #9 on:** 12 Apr 2012, 09:36 pm »

Quote

many have found that letting the server do the FLAC decoding and streaming PCM to the the Touch offloads the Touch's processor and allows it to sound cleaner

Can anyone tell me how this is done?

AB · « **Reply #10 on:** 12 Apr 2012, 09:44 pm »

Quote from: mca on 12 Apr 2012, 09:36 pm

Can anyone tell me how this is done?

In Squeezebox Server...

Settings->Advanced->File Types-> Look for FLAC on the left side list ( File Format) and the three options on the right (Stream Format) and set the three (Decoder) to:

FLAC disabled
MP3 greyed out
PCM FLAC

firedog · « **Reply #11 on:** 12 Apr 2012, 10:17 pm »

App loaded fine for me and 192 got sent to the DAC over SPDIF, but the Touch kept "rebuffering" the 192 streams. This doesn't happen with 96k for me. Pretty sure it was the Touch having the problem. Maybe if I had a USB DAC it would have worked as intended.

TJHUB · « **Reply #12 on:** 12 Apr 2012, 11:53 pm »

I reset my TT3.0 Touch back to factory settings and updated to the latest firmware. The Enhanced Digital Output app loaded fine. I have no issues with the sound as of yet, and 192k streams are working flawlessly. I actually think the sound from the EDO app may be better than the TT3.0 sound. It is certainly an improvement over the stock Touch's sound.

Turnandcough · « **Reply #13 on:** 14 Apr 2012, 03:22 pm »

This does look interesting however...
For now I don't have much interest in 24/192 as I haven't been able to notice an improvement over 24/96. I fiddled ad nauseam with TT3 so I'll wait and see what the general consensus is regarding this new app before jumping on the bandwagon. If it definitely improves the sound on all formats then I'm in if not I'll probably stick with TT3. Between work and the usual daily grind I already spend too much time modding and tweaking my system and not enough time relaxing and listening to it in non-critical mode.

One question - is it possible to keep the TT3 screen/Wi-Fi off features with the EDO app?

Wayne1 · « **Reply #14 on:** 14 Apr 2012, 04:25 pm »

In the way my system is currently configured, the Enhanced Digital Output is an easily heard improvement over the standard settings. I have never applied all of the TT 3.0 changes so I cannot speak about those. In comparison to partial TT 3.0 changes, the EDO sounds better to me.

I own very few 192 files. I do have quite a number of SACD rips at 176. The EDO allows me to hear more of the information on these files than using SOX to downsample the files. With the EDO there is a clear improvement in 24/176 files over 24/96. I have done my best to use the same material to do the comparison.

At 44.1 and 96kHz, the EDO improves the definition, bass extension and soundstage in comparison to the standard software. Installation is VERY easy. I do suggest as many people as possible give this a try. Remember, you do need to uninstall TT 3.0 and reset the Touch to factory defaults. At that point, I suggest you spend some time listening to your system. After a few days, then start adding on the TT 3.0 mods.

I have only listened to the EDO on a modded Touch. I do have a stock one on hand. I will try to compare the two next week. I will also try to compared the differences with a stock power supply to one of mine with the EDO. I am a bit biased about mods and PS, but I will do my best to give my impressions of any differences I hear in my system.

Nick77 · « **Reply #15 on:** 14 Apr 2012, 04:58 pm »

I upgraded to EDO for its ease of install vs TT mods. Stock Touch with upgraded diy power supply. Very noticable upgrade, a significant bump in finasse or refinement. I dont have any larger files to test 192k.

Well worth the small effort.

eclein · « **Reply #16 on:** 14 Apr 2012, 07:53 pm »

So I'm chillin out listening to SB files and reading stuff here and I see this thread, and how easy it is to do.....5 minutes later with the applet installed the difference isn't subtle here but nicely noticeable. More depth to the music now, very, very dark background-in fact as black as I think I've ever heard.

This is easy and sounds excellent.....I use Coax output to a DAC with Wayne's modded power supply and I really am very happy I read this thread...thanks Wayne, as always, whenever I take a suggested action from Wayne the outcome is always a substantial up tick in sound quality. Incredibly good tip Wayne!!

brj · « **Reply #17 on:** 14 Apr 2012, 08:50 pm »

Are people hearing differences in 44.1kHz/16 bit stored music just with FLAC formatted files, or with uncompressed formats as well?

I started paying attention to this app earlier in the week, but hadn't bothered updating my SB yet because all of my music is stored in the AIFF format, which isn't supported for hi-res files yet. Maybe I'll give it a try later this weekend anyway...

Turnandcough · « **Reply #18 on:** 14 Apr 2012, 08:51 pm »

Quote from: eclein on 14 Apr 2012, 07:53 pm

So I'm chillin out listening to SB files and reading stuff here and I see this thread, and how easy it is to do.....5 minutes later with the applet installed the difference isn't subtle here but nicely noticeable. More depth to the music now, very, very dark background-in fact as black as I think I've ever heard.

This is easy and sounds excellent.....I use Coax output to a DAC with Wayne's modded power supply and I really am very happy I read this thread...thanks Wayne, as always, whenever I take a suggested action from Wayne the outcome is always a substantial up tick in sound quality. Incredibly good tip Wayne!!

Are you comparing to TT 3.0 or factory default?

eclein · « **Reply #19 on:** 15 Apr 2012, 02:58 pm »

I had done some of the simple changes but never installed the toolbox so I was pretty much stock before.
Everything sounds better, I may overstate things as my ears for some reason hear any kind of change, its weird, comes from the music thing and listening for tunings and stuff I guess but its definitely better in my opinion on everything. The high rez flac stuff I have is most defiinitely better and my other stuff which is wav and good old mp3 sounds better also to me.......Thats just my take on it.......

I need to add that I was going to send my touch back until I got a modded power supply. Stock they just sound OK, I immediately thought when installing the touch over my Duet with modded PS that the Duet sounded way better. So I was like screw this, I even got it for 50% off and it was not impressing to me . I get the modded power supply and everything got tons better. Wider soundstage, darker BG, everything. I like the little touch display monitor showing me whats playing so the toolbox wasn't as inviting. The way it sounds now is better so I'm set for awhile as I was with just a better power supply. So stock touch with modded PS is my setup......of course this new applet is running now also.