[pureiso]

I just picked up 16 panels of OC 703 3" panels for pretty cheap and have come up with an even more economical cover for these panels (http://www.onlinefabricstore.net/burlap/burlap-bags/printed-burlap-bags/used-burlap-coffee-bags-.htm).

So with being said, I need to determine two things:  How to mount these and where to place them?

I figure first reflections will be the first to tackle, and then after that it is bass trapping?  I figured the front corners would be the best to tackle, maybe one angled above where my center is going to be located.

Some idea of layout: 11'x20'8'  L/R speaker out 3' from 11' wall, center near 11' wall about 5' up above TV.  Just thought I would fish for some helpful tips and pointers.

[brother love]

Those burlap sacks are a novel idea.  Good cheap & cheerful find, those could end up looking really cool, but there may be some challenges (there always is). Show us some pics after you get a few put together.

I know you posted this in the Acoustics Circle already, but the X-Omnis rely on reflections off ceiling, etc. that could make them a slightly different animal room treatment-wise than typical front radiating box type speakers.  Others here could advise …  So much depends on your room size, A/V set-up, speaker locations, listening position, door openings, windows, construction materials, etc.

GIK Room Kits show examples:  http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_room_kits_acoustic_panels.html

& a room case study:  http://www.gikacoustics.com/education_case.html

Ethan Winer’s RealTraps website has some good info ..

Room set-up basics  http://www.realtraps.com/art_room-setup.htm

If you don’t have a mic & software already, a  Rat Shack SPL meter & frequency tones will help in determining peaks, nulls, etc. : http://www.realtraps.com/test-cd.htm

My modest OC 703 DIY efforts ended up w/ (2) 24” x 48” x 2” side wall early reflection panels,  (2) 24” x 48” x 2” panels behind speakers for SBIR considerations (plus wall behind speakers is brick; info here http://www.gikacoustics.com/education_sbir.html ), (2) 24” x 48” x 4” bass traps in corners behind listening chairs, & (1) 24” x 48” x 2” panel centered directly behind listening position.  I tried a superchunk corner trap & an early reflection ceiling panel but it didn’t improve things any better than current set-up. 

Also consider diffusers if you need a live wall to improve dynamics  I don’t in my case 'cause my room is TOO live (wood panelling, wood floors, brick wall) & needs to be toned down.  Dave at PI Audio has some nice ones as does GIK Acoustics.

Good luck.  If your efforts are like many of us, you will understand & appreciate companies like GIK Acoustics & RealTraps offer good looking products at reasonable prices.

[pureiso]

Those burlap sacks are a novel idea.  Good cheap & cheerful find, those could end up looking really cool, but there may be some challenges (there always is). Show us some pics after you get a few put together.

I know you posted this in the Acoustics Circle already, but the X-Omnis rely on reflections off ceiling, etc. that could make them a slightly different animal room treatment-wise than typical front radiating box type speakers.  Others here could advise …  So much depends on your room size, A/V set-up, speaker locations, listening position, door openings, windows, construction materials, etc.

GIK Room Kits show examples:  http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_room_kits_acoustic_panels.html

& a room case study:  http://www.gikacoustics.com/education_case.html

Ethan Winer’s RealTraps website has some good info ..

Room set-up basics  http://www.realtraps.com/art_room-setup.htm

If you don’t have a mic & software already, a  Rat Shack SPL meter & frequency tones will help in determining peaks, nulls, etc. : http://www.realtraps.com/test-cd.htm

My modest OC 703 DIY efforts ended up w/ (2) 24” x 48” x 2” side wall early reflection panels,  (2) 24” x 48” x 2” panels behind speakers for SBIR considerations (plus wall behind speakers is brick; info here http://www.gikacoustics.com/education_sbir.html ), (2) 24” x 48” x 4” bass traps in corners behind listening chairs, & (1) 24” x 48” x 2” panel centered directly behind listening position.  I tried a superchunk corner trap & an early reflection ceiling panel but it didn’t improve things any better than current set-up. 

Also consider diffusers if you need a live wall to improve dynamics  I don’t in my case 'cause my room is TOO live (wood panelling, wood floors, brick wall) & needs to be toned down.  Dave at PI Audio has some nice ones as does GIK Acoustics.

Good luck.  If your efforts are like many of us, you will understand & appreciate companies like GIK Acoustics & RealTraps offer good looking products at reasonable prices.

Kind of like No-Rez, the substitute definitely is cheaper but more work.

I will be checking out the links you posted.  I wonder if Danny has advice for the X-Omnis?

[Danny Richie]

I know you posted this in the Acoustics Circle already, but the X-Omnis rely on reflections off ceiling, etc. that could make them a slightly different animal room treatment-wise than typical front radiating box type speakers.

Actually the X-Omni's don't work that way. Ceiling reflections have no contribution to their sound.

[pureiso]

Actually the X-Omni's don't work that way. Ceiling reflections have no contribution to their sound.

So would you say some absorbers directly above them would be beneficial, or just focus on the reflection points and standard placements?

[brother love]

Actually the X-Omni's don't work that way. Ceiling reflections have no contribution to their sound.

A tower speaker with a top mounted 6-1/2" driver doesn't generate sound waves that only need to travel aprox. 5 foot to the ceiling surface?  I would have failed that on a test! Of course you would know. 

[Danny Richie]

So would you say some absorbers directly above them would be beneficial, or just focus on the reflection points and standard placements?

They will benefit from absorbers and/or diffusers just like any other speaker. The main thing is getting them out into the room and away from reflection points.

A tower speaker with a top mounted 6-1/2" driver doesn't generate sound waves that only need to travel aprox. 5 foot to the ceiling surface?  I would have failed that on a test! Of course you would know. 

The sound reaching the listener from the woofer is directly radiated just as if it were front facing. It just has a different polar pattern.

[pureiso]

They will benefit from absorbers and/or diffusers just like any other speaker. The main thing is getting them out into the room and away from reflection points.

The sound reaching the listener from the woofer is directly radiated just as if it were front facing. It just has a different polar pattern.

Almost a kind of dipole effect?  They definitely were different when I hooked them up, but after quite a few hours of playing I am definitely glad I went with these.  They fill the room with ease.

[Rclark]

brother love, do you really think those realtraps products are a good value? They're like 3-4 hundred dollars a piece!

The gik 244 gets closer at under a hundred, but between you and me, knowing what those things are made of, just insulation or something similar, a frame, and some fabric, i just don't see it. so you can get a pair of monitors for 3-4 hundred, far harder and more expensive to build than a basstrap.

I called around, found local prices on 8lb mineral wool (not toxic), frame parts, and found i could build 32 full size framed traps and corner chunks for about $600. That's floor to ceiling wall to wall if i wanted.

So i think those companies really gouge on prices. Like they're something high tech. Lol.

[Rclark]

same with diffusers. The prices of diffusers is absolutely ludicrous.

[brother love]

Looks like the RealTraps products are much higher than I recall when researching several years ago.

Still though re: value ... get back w/ me AFTER  insulation/ cover material/ adhesive initial costs, cutting insulation, getting adhesive & burlap strands fused to all your fingers, spending way too many hours constructiing & you then you end up with these lumpy panels that look like a 6 yr. old did it (WAF doesn't help any either). THEN let me know if you understand the price models better.  Their expertise & involvement in the selection process for your particular application is worth something too.

I was cash-strapped & ended up making DIY panels, but next time I will buy premade panels. Just sayin' ...

Seriously though, good room treatments are a huge improvement that are equivalent to a major component upgrade or better. With experimenting  & patience, the end results will astound.

[TomS]

brother love, do you really think those realtraps products are a good value? They're like 3-4 hundred dollars a piece!

The gik 244 gets closer at under a hundred, but between you and me, knowing what those things are made of, just insulation or something similar, a frame, and some fabric, i just don't see it. so you can get a pair of monitors for 3-4 hundred, far harder and more expensive to build than a basstrap.

I called around, found local prices on 8lb mineral wool (not toxic), frame parts, and found i could build 32 full size framed traps and corner chunks for about $600. That's floor to ceiling wall to wall if i wanted.

So i think those companies really gouge on prices. Like they're something high tech. Lol.

Just curious, do you own or have you ever seen or handled any of those products you just accused of "gouging" and concluded are not "high tech" (e.g. GIK, RealTraps) ?

I have owned both brands for several years, as well as PI Audio, and have done plenty of DIY flavors too, which is a lot of work. Most of these commercial offerings go in studios where they can take a beating, thus need robust moveable frames, high quality coverings, flame proofing, etc. Even getting moved around in my little listening room at times, the physical differences become evident.

These suppliers continue to innovate and constantly provide room consulting and ideas for members here without obligation. Then, DIY'ers copy them with no complaints from them either.

DIY has it's place, but it's not for everyone, and the vendors certainly don't deserve to be disparaged here.

[Rclark]

Sure, I still think they are far overpriced. There is definitely a market for an accoustics company who can offer the same product for less than these guys charge, and still have "quality coverings" as you put it.

Maybe it makes sense to you, but to me $350 for a single basstrap is just plumb crazy.

[TomS]

Sure, I still think they are far overpriced. There is definitely a market for an accoustics company who can offer the same product for less than these guys charge, and still have "quality coverings" as you put it.

Maybe it makes sense to you, but to me $350 for a single basstrap is just plumb crazy.

So I guess that's a "no" to my question.

My traps didn't cost that much either, but knock yourself out building them 

[Rclark]

yes, that's a no. But unless they have a small black hole inside of those things, fancy cover and frame aside, eh..

I can see big dollars on a lot of things audio related, just this is one area where I dont feel like they are a good value, retail traps.

I'm not looking forward to building.    And I hope to figure out how to get the lumps out. Shouldn't be that hard.

When I have that kind of money to throw at retail traps I'm going active anyway.

[PDR]

Like anything else, experience is what makes it worthwhile or not.

I built 4pc 2'x4'x4" panels and 2 bass traps in 2 afternoons....cost was about $200.
I build buildings for a living, so for me this was easy....and they look professional.

Would I build an amp?........only if I could use brads...my soldering looks like seagull crap at 20mph.

[pureiso]

Well, we will see how it goes.  I am planning to not 'frame' these, but I will be attaching some cornerbead to insure a square appearance.  Also, I am planning on cutting them to the correct size to insert into the bag, and basically stretch the fabric over the front and pin up the back. 

As for mounting, I think I may use http://www.acoustimac.com/index.php/impaling-clips-installation-hardware-for-acoustic-panels.html or something similar.  Has anyone seen these in-store?

The ceiling ones I will have to come up with my own mounting solution, so we will see.

[django11]

I like those bags...

I made a couple of panels using Roxul Safe and Sound.  I just cut a 1/4inch mdf  panel the same size as the insulation and folded  some fabric over the insulation and stapled it onto the mdf (which is the back).  Putting some mdf in the bag might give the panel some needed stiffness. 

I did a super simple corner bass trap:  I cut a series of Roxul triangles appropriately sized for my corner location.  I cut an mdf triangle of the same size which rests on the baseboards in the corner.  Stacked the Roxul triangles on the mdf.  Made a simple 1x2 frame which I covered with fabric and tacked the frame ( 4 finish nails ) across the corner.  Clean and simple although not very mobile...

[brother love]

If you can, do not use a backing board for sound panels.  Per the research material I referenced, if you mount a 2" thick panel approx. 2" off the wall, the panels can accomplish double absorption (knock down waves, some pass thru, bounce off wall & pass thru again). Also if you use a perimeter wood frame, you are reducing the total panel area absorption by blocking off the sides.

Of course from a finished product & mounting standpoint, it becomes more challenging without backing boards or frames.  Even if they end up looking a little unfinished, they are still doing the job, only better.

[pureiso]

If you can, do not use a backing board for sound panels.  Per the research material I referenced, if you mount a 2" thick panel approx. 2" off the wall, the panels can accomplish double absorption (knock down waves, some pass thru, bounce off wall & pass thru again). Also if you use a perimeter wood frame, you are reducing the total panel area absorption by blocking off the sides.

Of course from a finished product & mounting standpoint, it becomes more challenging without backing boards or frames.  Even if they end up looking a little unfinished, they are still doing the job, only better.

Yeah, since I came across these for so cheap (less than $5 a panel for 3") I am not too worried about the extra distance from the wall.  Like I said, I am going to try metal cornerbead glued to all corners to give it structure and a clean look, and still maximizing surface area.  I may skip that step once I start working with it.

Corners are still hard for me to decide on.  I would like to maximize but the corner chunk method is more work to get a completely clean look and mobility.  I may just put the panels at an angle and fill the gap with some polyfill.  Stuff it like a teddybear.