James; care to take the Harbeth challenge?

JfTM · « **on:** 10 Apr 2012, 04:39 pm »

Saw this posted on another site.

Comments?

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?1569-Integrated-Amp-for-SHL5-%28and-amp-comparisons%29

Here is a challenge then.

If, in a controlled experiment with all variables accounted for (incl. differences in frequency reponse and within the power range appropriate to the amps) under instantaneous A-B relay switchover, driving any Harbeth speakers, if you can positively identify an amplifier by sound alone, I will give you, FOC, a pair of brand new Harbeth speakers, up to and including a pair of M40.1 in any veneer you fancy.

I am quite confident that under controlled conditions, these fabled amplifier differences disappear and that I will never be parting with my money!

However, I don't have the time to play around. You have to conceive of the test, design the switch over system and bring it to us here and we'll cooperate fully. There are plenty of examples of carefully constructed tests over the past 30+ years to draw on that meet my critera, and every one of them comes to the same conclusion. As far as this 'amp matching to Harbeth speakers' issue goes, it is a non-issue. As dead as the dodo. I cannot comment on the amp matching for other speaker brands. We take care to make our speaker an easy load: other speaker designers may be less consumer-focused.

NO CORRESPONDENCE PLEASE - CALL ME WHEN YOU HAVE THE WHOLE PLAN EXECUTED!

Amplifiers should be selected not for "sound quality" (whatever that is) but for facilities, design integrity, durability, after care and likelyhood of being able to source service parts in 5 or 10 years. Also, if you're really serious, a quick peek at the financial standing of the brand might tell you if they are likely to have the financial resources to weather the economic downturn of the next few years which is effecting the whole consumer electronics sector. Some of the most likely surviving (UK) brands rarely advertise, rarely exhibit, have relatively old-fashioned designs, use standard parts, have been around for a generation and are rock solid businesses. They deserve to be respected and supported because they will be there to look after you in 10+ years.

There are some very difficult times ahead for the consumer industry: now is a time to be cautious.

Alan A. Shaw
Designer, owner
Harbeth Audio UK

James Tanner · « **Reply #1 on:** 10 Apr 2012, 05:28 pm »

That's a pretty strong statement about the 'sameness' of amps but I can not disagree that the times ahead are going to be tough for the audio business.

I would say it would be interesting to ask Harbeth owners if they hear differences????

james

JohnR · « **Reply #2 on:** 10 Apr 2012, 05:39 pm »

I have to wonder if the offer works the other way around as well.

JfTM · « **Reply #3 on:** 10 Apr 2012, 05:43 pm »

I agree. My Hafler sounds different than my Bryston. Using the same program material the positions of instruments are different. I have a CD that the C3 Hammond shifts from back of the stage to the front depending on which amp I have hooked up; and that was with my Harbeth HL MkIIs!

Is he leaving an out when he talks about the same frequency response?

On a related note, a tube amp on the warmer side of the spectrum is going to sound different that a SS on the colder side.

werd · « **Reply #4 on:** 10 Apr 2012, 06:05 pm »

There is a hidden message in Harbeth's claims. Whether its done knowingly or not i don't know. But people who make these claims of amps similarities are either using a trickery method to make a point or perhaps they don't know them selves.

What harbeth may or maynot know, and the hidden message is, the source makes the sound. Amplifiers add power. So if you cycle through competant amps and use the same source you may find that very many will sound the same. Especially if the speakers have an overwhelming quality that tends to place boss in soundstage (in addition to the source). So now you have the same source coupled with a speaker that has a typical overbearing sound characteristic. This is why they can stack the deck on amp similarity claims.

The only way to be able to make these claim are to have a system in house and extended play experiences. This is the only way to see the " trees through the woods". This is how you will be able to hear small amp differences. People who are not intimately familiar with your system will not.

I can't see how people who will take this challenge would be intimately familiar with the system used.

I have always been interested in Harbeth and i have read only good things about them. I don't think Harbeth needs to employ these carnival antics to sell gear.

Phil A · « **Reply #5 on:** 10 Apr 2012, 06:28 pm »

Certainly is a bold challenge. Have done similar things and been able to tell differences. I guess it is a bit more difficult when you have to unhook components.

Sasha · « **Reply #6 on:** 10 Apr 2012, 07:45 pm »

The differences between amps on various speakers I have played with were significant, sometimes so obvious that within a few seconds of the same recording you would notice completely different presentation.
Speakers I played with more or less extensively and tried with different amps were WA WP 7, Sasha, Sophia II, B&W I do not know how many models, PMC GB1, FB1, FB1+, OB1, PB1i, EB1, EB1i, IB2S, IB2i, MB2S, ATC ACM50 and 100, Magico V3, Q5, Q3, Gershman, Avalon, to name a few, and yes, Harbeth for a short period of time.
Amps I tried were a range of amps from Bryston, McIntosh, Hovland, Simaudio, Linar, Krell, ML, PassLab, McCormack, to name a few.
I have never heard a pair of speakers where significantly different amps (i.e. power difference), yet all build very competently, did not exhibit clearly different presentation.
Even within Bryston line-up, for example 4B SST vs. 7B SST on the same pair of speakers, quite a difference. I vividly remember the day I tried 4B SST on WA Sophia II, it was so clear that 4B had no power to drive those so called “tube friendly” speakers, the load was too much for it. But hook them up to any 700+ Watts amps and they start to perform much better.
Or the difference between 4B SST and McCormack DNA 225 on PMC IB2S, it was the biggest difference between any two amps in approximately the same category I have ever heard, DNA was so colored that you would sometimes think you were not listening to the same recording.
Out of that entire bunch what stands out till this day is Bryston, PMC and ATC in corresponding brackets.
It is not possible to make passive cross-over that will at the same time be “easy load” without impedance and phase issues and provide decent dynamic capabilities, good power response, etc. Not in a thousand years. With passive crossover you have to make huge compromises and find a balance between problems.
If there are claims that amps do not sound different on some speakers, the only explanation for it is that speakers are masking those differences with their own heavy handed colorations.

zeeman · « **Reply #7 on:** 10 Apr 2012, 07:52 pm »

Alan, Care to have your speakers tested after being level matched to within 1db and "C-weighted" in a double blind test against better lower priced Canadian made speakers?

Didn't think so...

lowtech · « **Reply #8 on:** 10 Apr 2012, 08:41 pm »

Quote from: Sasha on 10 Apr 2012, 07:45 pm

The differences between amps on various speakers I have played with were significant, sometimes so obvious that within a few seconds of the same recording you would notice completely different presentation...

If there are claims that amps do not sound different on some speakers, the only explanation for it is that speakers are masking those differences with their own heavy handed colorations.

Seems to me that the other consideration is how "amplifier friendly" a particular pair of speakers is. While a really well-designed amplifier might sound really good driving a set of Quad ESLs, another might not. The same two amps may sound much more similar when driving a crossover-less speaker (read multi-way active).

PRELUDE · « **Reply #9 on:** 11 Apr 2012, 02:18 am »

Now is this a very new style of advertisement?
And here is the crossover.I am thinking if it could be build any cheaper.

How about we keep the amp as same and put 5 different pairs spakers including Harbeth and let him to tell us which one was Harbeth.

jaxwired · « **Reply #10 on:** 11 Apr 2012, 02:27 am »

Yep, everything sounds the same. Except of course Harbeth speakers. Those are clearly more equal than everything else.

wilsynet · « **Reply #11 on:** 11 Apr 2012, 02:35 am »

As I understand, Harbeth speakers have a reputation of being a bit rolled off on the top end, romanticize the mid-range and are a bit sloppy in the lower registers.

Perhaps Harbeths are not an ideal speaker to clearly demonstrate the differences between amplifiers.

wilsynet · « **Reply #12 on:** 11 Apr 2012, 02:36 am »

As I understand, Harbeth speakers have a reputation of being a bit rolled off on the top end, romanticize the mid-range and are a bit sloppy in the lower registers. That's not to say they don't make beautiful music, I couldn't say, it's just what I've read.

Perhaps Harbeths are not an ideal speaker to clearly demonstrate the differences between amplifiers.

larevoj · « **Reply #13 on:** 11 Apr 2012, 03:32 am »

I had a good laugh at how this thread evolved.

I think all of us (including me) agrees that amplifier makes a difference.

I have tried in my room by swapping out a Quad 909 and inserting 4BSST2 with nothing else change and even the preamplifier was a Quad 99 - I heard a BIG difference. Eventually I sold all my Quad gears and upgraded to Bryston.

FYI, I was using Dynaudio Focus 110.

Rclark · « **Reply #14 on:** 11 Apr 2012, 05:59 am »

... why doesn't someone here comply with the request? By all accounts, hey, free Harbeths! If I could build the switch box and do all he requires, I'd totally be in. Those things would fetch some nice change on the 'Gon I'd put elsewhere in the system.

jaxwired · « **Reply #15 on:** 11 Apr 2012, 11:28 am »

Quote from: Rclark on 11 Apr 2012, 05:59 am

... why doesn't someone here comply with the request? By all accounts, hey, free Harbeths! If I could build the switch box and do all he requires, I'd totally be in. Those things would fetch some nice change on the 'Gon I'd put elsewhere in the system.

It's been tried in the past and for whatever reason, the skeptics seem to win everytime. People generally can't tell amplifiers apart in ABX tests. This leads many people to the reasonable conclusion that all amplifiers must sound the same and high end electronics are a rip off. I draw the different conclusion that ABX tests simply don't work for testing hifi. My own personal experience along with that of tens of thousands of other audiophiles is evidence far too strong to ignore. There is just way too much overwhelming agreement among people that actually own high end equipment for it to be a case of mass delusion. And my own findings are way to consistent and clear to dismiss.

Sasha · « **Reply #16 on:** 11 Apr 2012, 12:29 pm »

Quote from: jaxwired on 11 Apr 2012, 11:28 am

It's been tried in the past and for whatever reason, the skeptics seem to win everytime. People generally can't tell amplifiers apart in ABX tests. This leads many people to the reasonable conclusion that all amplifiers must sound the same and high end electronics are a rip off. I draw the different conclusion that ABX tests simply don't work for testing hifi. My own personal experience along with that of tens of thousands of other audiophiles is evidence far too strong to ignore. There is just way too much overwhelming agreement among people that actually own high end equipment for it to be a case of mass delusion. And my own findings are way to consistent and clear to dismiss.

ABX tests work very well, the most recent one being when we had a number of people comparing BDA-1 with another DAC (there is a post about it), I was able to pick out BDA-1 even on recordings I had never heard before, without knowing in advance which DAC played at what time I was able to say which one was BDA-1 when we changed playback between the two for each recording. Some could not do so, or even got confused by insisting the other DAC was BDA-1, what does not show that tests do not work but that not all people can hear the deference or clearly differentiate sonic signatures among components.

pardales · « **Reply #17 on:** 11 Apr 2012, 01:03 pm »

Its a marketing tactic. They know the chance is slim of anyone taking them up on their offer and, in the meantime, they have planted the notion in susceptible audiophool's heads that Harbeth's are NOT amp dependent. In essence, saying, "Harbeth's will work with YOUR amp."

I am a recovering audiophool.

sfraser · « **Reply #18 on:** 11 Apr 2012, 01:07 pm »

Quote from: jaxwired on 11 Apr 2012, 11:28 am

It's been tried in the past and for whatever reason, the skeptics seem to win everytime. People generally can't tell amplifiers apart in ABX tests. This leads many people to the reasonable conclusion that all amplifiers must sound the same and high end electronics are a rip off. I draw the different conclusion that ABX tests simply don't work for testing hifi. My own personal experience along with that of tens of thousands of other audiophiles is evidence far too strong to ignore. There is just way too much overwhelming agreement among people that actually own high end equipment for it to be a case of mass delusion. And my own findings are way to consistent and clear to dismiss.

If I can't tell the difference in a well conducted ABX test, then i would be happy with the cheapest amp, or the one I already have. I don' trust my "musical/audio memory" for more than 30 minutes . Therefore without a direct and immediate comparison all bets are off for me, a least when swapping components like source's and amplifiers. Speakers and room comparisons , that is a different story. i can pick out minute differences, but again it is much easier if the comparison is done immediately, which is hard for rooms : )

sfraser

DaveNote · « **Reply #19 on:** 11 Apr 2012, 01:54 pm »

Sasha's experience is very persuasive. I have to confess that given the way I've bought amps in the past, with no A/B comparison, I could not honestly say that my 4B differred from my 4BST, or it with my 7BSTs or these as compared to my 7BSSTs.

But I became utterly convinced that amps make a difference when I moved to the 7BSST squared. Admittedly, no A/B comparison, but with all other pieces in the system being excactly the same, the difference was so dramatic it simply couldn't be denied.

Dave