[Elizabeth]

I wanted to add on to my post way back on page 2, but so much has been written since..
So anyway, one other point for BOTH great formats LP and Cd is the used market.
I buy almost 100% used. And having the ability to buy used in either Cd or Lp is a great thing most of the time.
I have pretty good local used music markets to sift through, so i can just stick to local used. Only buying a few rare items I want off the internet.
Some days all i find are LPs.. some only CDs...
Either way, when i find some MUSIC I want, i am happy regardless if it is in LP or CD format.

[JerryM]

I like the humorous nature of our grammar on an international website. I like that nathanm conitnues with the wit. 

To stay more OT, I was growing up in the middle of the LP/CD transition. I looked back to my first turntable: a little suitcase model with a white plastic platter and the requiste stack of pennies precariously stacked on top of the arm.   

Yeah, give me that digital goodness!!!! If one believes that vinyl is the future of premium audio sound, one may be interested to know that said vinyl will absolutely sound better on some land that is currently available. 

Have fun,

Jerry

[doug s.]

...If one believes that vinyl is the future of premium audio sound, one may be interested to know that said vinyl will absolutely sound better on some land that is currently available. 

can't speak for the future, only the present.  any land anywhere, awailable or otherwise, winyl is still #1, presently.  we'll see what the future brings...  hopefully, whatever is the prewalent format in the future, it will get better, not worse...

doug s.

[TheChairGuy]

I pruned nearly 2 pages of BS here...which took a LOT of time. Apologies to anyone that got pruned and were only trying to help - it's just that the comments made little sense in light of the so many posts being pruned.

NathanM - you're being intentionally caustic - please stay out of this topic.  People living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones

John / Facilitator

[Letitroll98]

It's a never ending and thankless battle John, so here's a little thanks for maintaining AC's high standards of conduct.

Funny, I was never duped by CD, I brought people over all the time to compare the two all through the late 80's and early 90's when CD really took hold everywhere.  "See, listen, doesn't the LP sound so much better?"  "Well, it sounds...bigger, but CD's are so kewl dude."  It was a losing battle convincing anyone no matter what they actually heard.  They wanted CD's.

But divorce and relocation forced my tables and LPs into storage for years.  When I got more settled and rebuilt the stereo system up to what it had been and better, I though, gee, I've got a TT and all those records in the closet (lost more than half of the collection) WTF, why not set the darn thing up?  It's been a dual set up since, some things in CD, some in vinyl, some in both, all according to mood, budget, and availability.

I agree with FRM's assessment that vinyl has many false attributes, a bump through the upper bass/lower mids, increased soundstage size is prolly an artifact, etc., but I don't care.  If it's musically more enjoyable I'm playing the LP, and in a majority of the cases it is.  As I begin to jump into high rez this may change, I'm finding musical satisfaction and accuracy there, but only a toe in so far.

Doug, go and wash your mouth out with soap, your mother would be ashamed, tsk.  TV and it's companion the internet are the salvation of modern society. 

[neobop]

I agree with FRM's assessment that vinyl has many false attributes, a bump through the upper bass/lower mids, increased soundstage size is prolly an artifact, etc., but I don't care.  If it's musically more enjoyable I'm playing the LP, and in a majority of the cases it is.  As I begin to jump into high rez this may change, I'm finding musical satisfaction and accuracy there, but only a toe in so far.

Leritroll,
Beside opinion, there was some misinformation flying around this thread, including the part about RIAA curve. That's merely an inverse of the compensation used in the cutting process and has nothing to do with bumps through the bass/low mids. Many phono carts don't have perfectly flat fr resp, but that's a separate issue. "If it's more musically enjoyable I'm playing the LP, and in the majority of cases it is." That pretty much says it all for me too. I also play digital music.

The reality of the recorded music business is based more on convenience than quality. By 1990 the cassette still ruled in terms of sales with 55% of the market. 31% went to CD and vinyl dropped to just under 5%. I'm not sure about the other 9%, but those are figures from the RIAA. The cassette surpassed vinyl by the mid '80s. The CD didn't become dominant till '92. Now, it too seems to be on the way out. In 2/06 Apple reported selling its billionth song on iTunes. 
http://www.playlistresearch.com/recordindustry.htm#70s

[BobRex]

It wasn't just the CD or cassette that killed the LP- it was something that hasn't (I think) been mentioned here yet: the VCR, or more generally, the home video market. "Back in the day", if you didn't want to take in what was on any of the three TV channels or ten radio stations you could get at any given time, what was left? Play a record.

Nope, not even close.  Case in point, I had cable (13 channels) in 1964.  I could name a dozen record and audio stores that opened up (and thrived) after that. 

Now if you want to make the case that video "killed the radio star" (sorry, couldn't help it...) then perhaps, but the preponderance of video and its assualt on audio happened AFTER the introduction of the CD.  You could argue that domestic VCRs became available in 79/80, but again they really weren't a driving issue until the mid-80's.  As such, they really weren't an issue until after CDs were available.  Video may have led to the demise if high quality audio - think of the drek sold for the past 10+years as "instant home theater" - but then, only for the non-connoisseur. 

For all intent, the LP was declared a non-issue by 83/85 - it wasn't video that did it in.

[LM]

I pruned nearly 2 pages of BS here...which took a LOT of time.

Thanks John – for a while it was looking like a thread to stay well clear of.

As to the original question, I think we were duped initially but I suspect inadvertently and largely by ourselves.

I can understand the development engineers’ excitement.  When I first read up on the ‘digital’ concept, It sounded so advanced and full of promise that I couldn’t wait to hear the new medium.  When a friend next door brought back a very expensive early production CD player from the States, I was wrapped with the background quietness and ‘sold’ on the concept and caught up in the hype.

So why did I not pick up any of the sonic shortcomings at first?  Well firstly, my friend had far better speakers than I had at the time and it just sounded better than my system; the first step of duping myself.  I wasn’t into audiophile like analysis.  Nor in those days was I a conspiracy theorist – I never suspected Sony or Philips of anything other than technological advancement.  Besides, the small form factor and convenience of the player seemed cool.  Finally, and this now hurts, in retrospect I was a rather casual analogue system user.  TT levelling and isolation???  I cleaned my records (with a rub from cheap anti-static rag), I aligned my cartridge (roughly by eye), I did at least set the VTF carefully by an AR gauge and I did manage to keep the beer off the LPs except at the really serious parties.  So perhaps I did not have such a perfect analogue sound any way.  In any case, very soon thereafter, I found the excuse that rather than spend on a new cartridge I would put the money towards a good CD player and buy CDs from then on, and never look back.  Totally practical and future proof eh!

It wasn’t until some 20+ years on (with a full surround sound side track in the middle of that as well) that I would actually be able to sit down and directly compare Redbook and Vinyl side by side in my own quite good system and come to my own conclusion. Which is???

[doug s.]

it's so odd, hearing the stories about how folks got "duped".  when cd's came out, i had a definitely mid-fi system; decent enough, but no great shakes.  but, whenever i listened to cd - whether it be on friend's mid-fi or higher end systems, or at stores, w/exotic hi-end systems, i always found cd's completely unlistenable - harsh, etched, sterile and irritating.  background quietness was totally meaningless to me, as i could not enjoy the music...

doug s.

[Freo-1]

it's so odd, hearing the stories about how folks got "duped".  when cd's came out, i had a definitely mid-fi system; decent enough, but no great shakes.  but, whenever i listened to cd - whether it be on friend's mid-fi or higher end systems, or at stores, w/exotic hi-end systems, i always found cd's completely unlistenable - harsh, etched, sterile and irritating.  background quietness was totally meaningless to me, as i could not enjoy the music...

doug s.

I would agree that in the early days of CD, vinyl was much more musical.  However, over the years, digital has more or less caught up, and in the case of high resolution multi channel digital recordings, IMHO, a more accurate musical reproduction is achieved.  This is especially true of classical music reproduction, where the dynamic contrasts are easily handled by digital, and are not by vinyl.  I have yet to hear a vinyl setup, regardless of price that did not have noise issues with some symphonies where it goes from VERY QUIET to VERY LOUD correctly.  I have heard multi channel high resolution recordings where that is not the case.

Take a current digital playback system like a Modwright Oppo 95 with full up modifications, and odds are greater than 99% that performance will be more accurate than just about any vinyl playback setup. 

The 800 lb gorilla that is not mentioned here is that there are whole host of issues with getting vinyl turntables set up correctly to provide optimum playback.  Take ten turntable setups, and you will get ten different levels of playback performance, whereas ten Modwright Opp units will provide consistent and more reliable playback performance. 

Still, as they say, it “horses for courses”.  If folks prefer vinyl, no worries.  I would just encourage them to seek out something along the lines of a Modwright Oppo, along with supporting media, and give it a try.

[Tyson]

I think the gorilla went low carb a while back and is now only a 400lb gorilla.

[Freo-1]

I think the gorilla went low carb a while back and is now only a 400lb gorilla.

Ya think?   

Turntable setup is a pain at it's best.

[Letitroll98]

Well I had to find out so I put Leo (he's my gorilla) on the scale and he comes in at a svelte 382 lbs.

Setting up a turntable is easier than getting Leo on the scale.

[doug s.]

I would agree that in the early days of CD, vinyl was much more musical.  However, over the years, digital has more or less caught up, and in the case of high resolution multi channel digital recordings, IMHO, a more accurate musical reproduction is achieved.  This is especially true of classical music reproduction, where the dynamic contrasts are easily handled by digital, and are not by vinyl.  I have yet to hear a vinyl setup, regardless of price that did not have noise issues with some symphonies where it goes from VERY QUIET to VERY LOUD correctly.  I have heard multi channel high resolution recordings where that is not the case.

Take a current digital playback system like a Modwright Oppo 95 with full up modifications, and odds are greater than 99% that performance will be more accurate than just about any vinyl playback setup. 

The 800 lb gorilla that is not mentioned here is that there are whole host of issues with getting vinyl turntables set up correctly to provide optimum playback.  Take ten turntable setups, and you will get ten different levels of playback performance, whereas ten Modwright Opp units will provide consistent and more reliable playback performance. 

Still, as they say, it “horses for courses”.  If folks prefer vinyl, no worries.  I would just encourage them to seek out something along the lines of a Modwright Oppo, along with supporting media, and give it a try.

digital is certainly better than it was in the earlier years.  as i said prewiously, i have been able to enjoy digital now for some 10-12 years.  re: hi-rez, i simply do not have the experience w/it to offer an intelligent opinion.  (tho it is interesting to read those who say hi-rez offers no more fidelity than redbook - this i simply have a hard time believing, even tho i don't have 1st hand experience.)

not sure, honestly, if hi-rez is gonna happen any time soon chez-sedon.  unless a hi-rez format is chosen that is uniwersal like lp was, and then like cd was (and still is?); i am simply not gonna participate.  i already have enough software to keep me happy, and there's more still out there than i could ever possibly purchase that i don't have.  that, and there's still a coupla fm stations broadcasting quality format and content that keep me happy.

i know, i am an anomaly here; most of my serious listening is to fm; pretty-much no one else on a/c listens to fm anything more than casually.  i remember many occasions where i'd be planted in the sweet spot w/the system cranked up; someone would come over to wisit - friend/neighbor/guest/relative/etc - and they'd walk into the room and say wow, that sounds great - what record is that?  they would be floored when i said "i dunno, it's the radio".  yes, the sound of fm can be as good as any redbook or winyl rig, when the broadcast is quality and the tuna is quality...  talk about blasphemy and/or being duped!   

doug s.

[mjosef]

I think my digital/CD source sounds pretty good, its cheap @ under a grand. As good as vinyl can sound, its too high maintenance for today's fast lifestyle.
I waited a few years before I jumped into the CD world back in the mid -late 80's, but I kept my LPs and turntable but by the second half of the 90's my vinyl stuff was boxed up and in storage...seeing the light of the day again in the new century around 2002.
Funny thing is I kept buying LPs even though my turntable was boxed up, habit I guess.

[Rclark]

I have quite a few cd's that sound absolutely breathtaking. As long as there are people saying there isn't any difference between well recorded cd and anything else, as I said in my earlier post, I see no reason to change anything yet. I understand that other media can sound better. But it seems that if they put the same level of work into the cd recording, same result.

If it were definitively better, it would be definitive. Not even a question.

[doug s.]

I have quite a few cd's that sound absolutely breathtaking. As long as there are people saying there isn't any difference between well recorded cd and anything else, as I said in my earlier post, I see no reason to change anything yet. I understand that other media can sound better. But it seems that if they put the same level of work into the cd recording, same result.

If it were definitively better, it would be definitive. Not even a question.

it is definitive, and it isn't even a question.  at least that's the case for many who have tried it.   

for me, as i said, since i am not replacing all my software, and since hi-rez awailability isn't the mainstream software that is awailable, i am not really interested.  but, i am not gonna stick my head in the sand and deny it might be better, yust cuz those who have a dog in the fight say it ain't any better...

doug s.

[Letitroll98]

Note that hi rez isn't bound to any software format, you can install dozens of codecs on your computer, nothing you purchased ever goes out of favor.  You never again have to dig that old Betamax player out of the closet to view and old favorite, there's only one machine.

[macrojack]

I've been duped and unduped enough times to think a lot of this hoopla leads nowhere. Like Doug, I really like FM. No matter how much music I have, if I'm playing it I know what's coming. Conversely, with FM, the next song up is a pleasant surprise (usually).
I understand that a music server on random play takes me to a similar place but there is nothing I never heard before on my music server  (I don't own one).

If there is a college station or a community radio station available in your area, tune in. Don't allow the demonizing of public radio to deprive you of this excellent option. It's not always great but the odds are with you whenever you tune in unless it's the news hour, and even then you might get a nice surprise.

For me, my records are mostly just nostalgic and the CDs have gotten too familiar as well.
KVNF in Paonia, Colorado and KZMU in Moab, Utah and KGNU in Boulder are all good examples that you can access online. Most of you probably have something similar on the left side of your dial, unless you live in a place like Roanoke, Va. When I was there, there was nothing but talk and Christian. Yuck!! 3 years in hell.

[rollo]

   FM is a good choice for different music.  Listen to FM quite often. Interesting that we have some local stations that play LPs on the air. Vinyl hour. There is a definite difference in sonics. Reminds more of a live broadcast then digital playback over the airwaves.


charles