Removing Pops

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DaveyW

Removing Pops
« on: 8 Mar 2012, 07:51 pm »
Hi All,

Still very much in experimental stages but am having reasonable success in removing the odd annoying pop that my cleaning regime has failed to deal with via this very basic DIY record inspection rig.





I know roughly where the culprit is referencing whereabouts into the track and where the noise lines up with the label.
Find the offending bit of lodged dirt under the scope and am generally able to remove with a careful prod with a sharpened tooth pick or splint.

Some are more stubborn and I'm considering how best to approach these without risking damaging the vinyl.

I know some use metal scalpels for this - I'm not quite that brave enough yet.

Will keep tinkering and see where it leads

Basic stuff I know, but thought it worth sharing.
Cheers
Dave

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Re: Removing Pops
« Reply #1 on: 8 Mar 2012, 08:33 pm »
Congratulations for your project.
There is some others as Declick or ClickRepair, that I never listen;
http://www.musingsfrommars.org/2005/10/vinyl-record-lovers-rejoice.html

Wayner

Re: Removing Pops
« Reply #2 on: 8 Mar 2012, 09:02 pm »
Do you suspect that the pop source is actually a mold growth that has latched itself to the groove walls, or does there appear to be a particulate lodged in there?

I have occasionally found something that looks yellow, so I suspect some kind of biological growth. I have tried to stay away from using tools, using the chemical approach, instead.

I have found that 99% isopropyl alcohol soaking on the offender for a while, then using Orthobiz's gauze as the mechanical persuader, seems to loosen and remove all of the stuff. I did have one spot that was part of the vinyl, which I think was just contaminate that got pressed into the vinyl during the stamping process. Nice scope.

Wayner

bside123

Re: Removing Pops
« Reply #3 on: 8 Mar 2012, 09:10 pm »
Wow Dave... that's incredibly cool, and yet, a level of detail that's beyond me! Are you able to see the little, teenie-weenie, itsy-bitsy, microscopic musicians in the groove as well? Let me know if you spot a late 50s, Gibson ES-335... my favorite blues guitar of all times.  Din

DaveyW

Re: Removing Pops
« Reply #4 on: 8 Mar 2012, 09:37 pm »
Hey Guys - It's getting even better!

At 200x magnification I can see 6-8 grooves thru the eyepiece and have started to look at slight scratches that deliver an audible click.
I can quite easily see the slight burring into the groove that's causing the click.
I've just about got a steady enough hand to actually chase the groove and reduce the burr.
Am only using a soft wood tool at the moment so am unlikely to be able to remove the click completely but so far I have been able to soften them.
Will keep looking into this - all quite promising.

Hi Wayner - I'd say that most clicks seem to be "wedged in" dirt that IPA and Steam have failed to remove  - some are mighty stubborn. In some cases they have appeared some time after cleaning.
I am considering using a IPA solution again with my little stick if I struggle to remove without - still very much experimenting at the moment.

Hey Din - Nope no sign of Gibsons in there yet - but in my case it'd be a Strat I'd be hoping to find  :icon_lol:

If I get a chance over the weekend I'll see if I can grab some shots through the eyepiece of a scratch.

Cheers
Dave

BaMorin

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Re: Removing Pops
« Reply #5 on: 8 Mar 2012, 10:09 pm »
Hey Guys - It's getting even better!

At 200x magnification I can see 6-8 grooves thru the eyepiece and have started to look at slight scratches that deliver an audible click.
I can quite easily see the slight burring into the groove that's causing the click.
I've just about got a steady enough hand to actually chase the groove and reduce the burr.
Am only using a soft wood tool at the moment so am unlikely to be able to remove the click completely but so far I have been able to soften them.
Will keep looking into this - all quite promising.

Hi Wayner - I'd say that most clicks seem to be "wedged in" dirt that IPA and Steam have failed to remove  - some are mighty stubborn. In some cases they have appeared some time after cleaning.
I am considering using a IPA solution again with my little stick if I struggle to remove without - still very much experimenting at the moment.

Hey Din - Nope no sign of Gibsons in there yet - but in my case it'd be a Strat I'd be hoping to find  :icon_lol:

If I get a chance over the weekend I'll see if I can grab some shots through the eyepiece of a scratch.

Cheers
Dave

Well then better start checking Electric Ladyland real close......and if'n happen to find two white Strats... :thumb:

For mold or a protien based groove gunk, try some hydrogen peroxide.  For a chunk of something stuck have you tried double sided tape?  You should be able to clean any adhesive off

bside123

Re: Removing Pops
« Reply #6 on: 8 Mar 2012, 11:22 pm »
Hey Guys - It's getting even better!

Hey Din - Nope no sign of Gibsons in there yet - but in my case it'd be a Strat I'd be hoping to find  :icon_lol:
Cheers
Dave

Okay, Okay... a '57 or '63 Strat... I won't complain. I'd prefer the rosewood fretboard, but I won't get picky. Do you get dizzy staring at those grooves under such magnification? Oh... one more thing, if you find the real Paul McCartney down there, please exhume him.  Din  :thumb:

Jlappy

Re: Removing Pops
« Reply #7 on: 9 Mar 2012, 05:43 am »
Dave,

Nice rig!   :notworthy: You the man!



All,

Thanks for the tips and suggestions!  :)

Jim

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Re: Removing Pops
« Reply #8 on: 9 Mar 2012, 06:16 am »
Hopefully in the near future nanobots designed to repair record groove walls and clean up in there will become a reality.

One would set them loose at one end of the groove and set the recapturing device at the other end.
Cool.
Better than a flying car..... (the usual 'future' fantasy)

DaveyW

Re: Removing Pops
« Reply #9 on: 9 Mar 2012, 12:31 pm »
Well then better start checking Electric Ladyland real close......and if'n happen to find two white Strats... :thumb:

Not interested!

Right handers bodged up for Lefties are no good to me  :D

DaveyW

Re: Removing Pops
« Reply #10 on: 9 Mar 2012, 12:51 pm »
Hopefully in the near future nanobots designed to repair record groove walls and clean up in there will become a reality.

One would set them loose at one end of the groove and set the recapturing device at the other end.
Cool.
Better than a flying car..... (the usual 'future' fantasy)

Cool indeed! Let's raise the Patent now  :icon_lol:

Mitsuman

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Re: Removing Pops
« Reply #11 on: 9 Mar 2012, 01:03 pm »
I think a "smart" organism, one genetically programmed to seek out defects in vinyl and organically repair them would be the way to go. Nanobots sound too digital to me.  :lol:

DaveyW

Re: Removing Pops
« Reply #12 on: 9 Mar 2012, 08:08 pm »
Had a little play with the camera - can't really get the lens in close enough on this scope to get a decent shot.
This is the best I could take of a fairly bad scratch (failed to inspect both discs of this double LP when buying  :evil:)

It's just about possible to make out what's happened here.
The top of the edge has caved in and rolled over into the groove.
It's much clearer to see by eye  :roll:



I've taken the brave ( :lol:) step of moving on to using a cactus needle (splinted into a soft wood holder) to clean out the grooves.



The soft wood of a cocktail stick quickly deforms – am hoping this is the right balance, not to sharp/tough to damage the vinyl but stiff enough to maintain it’s form and help chase out the grooves.

Will continue to experiment on bad discs, then will have a go at effecting a repair on something more loved with a slight scratch.
Will share a before and after recording if this goes anywhere.

Cheers
Dave

Douger

Re: Removing Pops
« Reply #13 on: 11 Mar 2012, 04:03 pm »
Years ago someone reported success using a broken single-edge razor blade... I never did try it.

Wayner

Re: Removing Pops
« Reply #14 on: 11 Mar 2012, 04:07 pm »
Dave,

Necessity is the mother of invention. Perhaps you have just invented a new, useful vinyl groove repair tool.

Genius: 1% inspiration, 99%perspiration.


 :D

DaveyW

Re: Removing Pops
« Reply #15 on: 11 Mar 2012, 07:05 pm »
Thanks gents.

Wayner: Not so much perspiration in this case……………..more eye strain  :?

A quick update after some further exploits.

The cactus tool turns out to be pretty much ideal for carefully prising out pieces of embedded dirt.
I ended up using a fine grade wet 'n' dry paper (dry) to sharpen up the tip a little and it works a treat.
The good thing about the cactus thorn is if I accidently jump sideways it doesn't appear to damage the grooves, well at least so far so good on this front. 
Probably just not quite hard enough to cause too much damage when used carefully.

But for trying to tidy up scratches it's not really up to the task, not being stiff enough to dislodge the deformed vinyl.
I can subtly improve the level of the click but am not able to noticeably reduce it.
The sanded down thorn I used from a domestic house cactus deflects just too easily and is not able to scrub the damaged plastic aside.

So it's left me in a bit of a quandary as what to try next?

As Douger mentioned, it does look as though some form of razor blade or as I mentioned in my OP a scalpel/craft knife is required.

The problem with this is I'm really not sure I can hold one of these (with a suitable handle) steady enough to chase a groove without hopping over a couple of grooves and risking making things worse.
I suppose if the scratch is bad enough not to play the disc there's not much to lose.
Probably a bit more trialling of the technique might help a little.

Am certainly going to continue to use the rig and cactus tool for locating and fixing pops, but need to mull over what's best for trying to fix scratches.
I do like the idea of a scalpel/craft knife, but it needs to be small enough to fit between the lens and the disc - no more than 3/8" high.

Grafting part of a razor blade onto a similar wooden carrier is probably the way to go with this – thanks Douger.
I should be able to form this into just the right shape for the job.

If anyone's got any other thoughts - I'm all ears.

Cheers
Dave

Wayner

Re: Removing Pops
« Reply #16 on: 11 Mar 2012, 07:59 pm »
How about a pin or sewing needle?

W

DaveyW

Re: Removing Pops
« Reply #17 on: 11 Mar 2012, 08:29 pm »
Sort of like this eh?







Will leave for the glue to dry before finishing off the tip and see what we can do with this during the week ahead.

Good rec. - thanks Wayner  :thumb:

DaveyW

Re: Removing Pops
« Reply #18 on: 18 Mar 2012, 09:53 pm »
OK time for another update.

Been tinkering with this on and off for the last few days and now got a little process to improve pops caused by scratches.

Won’t bore you with the details of everything that I’ve tried just what appears to work best.

As I previously posted, under the scope you can see that the scratch rounds off the edge and pushes the (generally) still attached vinyl spur over and down into the groove.  In most cases it is this, rather than wall damage that causes the audible pop.

Using the grafted pin tool (as pictured above) I’ve found the best end form to “chase out” the groove and minimise risk of damage is this;



The base of the diamond form rides in the groove, not the point.
I drop it gently into the groove just before the scratch and carefully slide through the damaged area driving the spur of vinyl up and out.
If it gets stubborn I angle the tool downwards and use the point to prize up the damaged vinyl.

I’ve found it best to do this at 100x magnification; you see more of the scratch area and it’s still good enough to drop the tool into the grooves and see the material being pushed up and out.

And the end result – well it’s been a little varied but this was more to do with developing the technique.  Typically though, I’ve been able to remove a loud repetitive pop into what I’d best describe as low level background crackle.

I’ve just had a go at a very tatty Bowie album (this is not my primary copy) which is plain beat up, lots of surface marks and one horrendous scratch.
This is pretty much as bad as it gets;



I recorded the below clips of the intro to track 2, right in the meat of the scratch.

BEFORE

AFTER

Take a listen
Not too bad I think, especially bearing in mind the severity of the scratch.
The grooves were full of damaged plastic.

So the little kit is on standby now.
If I come across any annoying pops and/or scratches, am pretty happy to try and repair.

Cheers
Dave

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Re: Removing Pops
« Reply #19 on: 19 Mar 2012, 02:45 pm »
Big difference!  Good work, Dave :thumb: