[randyr]

i was considering some upgrades to my sound system in preparation for
the speakers dave is building for us.  one thing i have read a bit about is
speaker cables.  currently i'm using some junk light weight wire, i
know i need to upgrade.  i stumbled across an article by roger russell
and he presents a pretty strong argument for using 14 or 16 awg copper
wire (depending on length of run) instead of purchasing some very expensive cables.  i looked at dave's site but didn't see any discussion on this matter.  i'm curious to know about how wires are attached to 1801
speakers.  from pix i looked at it looks like there is some sort of 4
post set up, but i may be miss reading this.  anyway, i was curious to
hear (no pun itended) recommendations on speaker cables and amp/component interconnects.  i don't want to purchase anything new without first knowing the hook up style and your thoughts.  cheers

[David Ellis]

Randy,

Thanks for posting this query.  I have a hunch this will get somewhat long.  In my first post I'll address the speaker cable issue.

Upgrading the 8' connection between amp and speakers seems to be the easiest tweak in hifi, but I am certain it's not the smartest.  Upgrading capacitors in coupling applications, and behind tweeters has considerably more value.  Consider that a smaller 4.7uf capacitor has about 120' of foil depending on geometry.  Longer 4.7s will have slightly less foil length, and fatter 4.7s will have more foil length.  Nonetheless, the length of foil in a small tweeter high pass capacitor is very significant.  The quality of film, foil, the termination process is all critial.  As a sidenote, I believe it's very wrong when capacitor vendors purvey a capacitor with a fancy lead material .  I find it foolish that a 3" lenght of gold plated copper would have any impact when compared to the 120' of foil inside a capacitor.  Getting high quality inside a capacitor has a significant impact in sound quality!  This is extremly true in coupling applications , and less true behind tweeters .  I think investing $ in good capacitors is much smarter than investing  $ in speaker wire.

Nonetheless, the decision to spend more $ on cables is viable.  I believe there are 4 issued to be concerned with in speaker wire.  Inductance, capacitance, resitance, and wire quality (OFC?).  I think that in speaker wire the most important facotor is impedance.  Getting low impedance requires the configuration of the wires to be very close.  I don't know of any other method of obtaining very low impedance.  Hence, my vote for wire goes to goes to Goertz.  It ain't terribly expensive, but it'll likely set you back about $80.

I have tried the following wire and will offer a brief summary.  This list generally rises in quality and is Chronological.

1.  Lamp cord (16ga) - Brown and ugly - a baseline.

2.  Monster cable (14ga) - does this stuff actually sound an better than lamp cord?  After a few years the copper turned green .  It looked nice for a while.

3.  Kimber 4pr ($1.60/ft)   - This is Kimber's cheapest wire, and it's decent.  It easily sounded better than my Monster cable or Lamp cord.  It was my first venture into hifi.  I liked it!

4.  Belden 89259   ala Jon Risch - This stuff easily sounded better than the Kimber 4pr and I compared it with some Weisach cable at $90/ft.  The Belden actually did pretty well.  I was pleased.

5.  Teflon Coated Cat 5 - I spent hours twising this stuff together.  It was a tedious project that didn't work.  I thought the Kimber PBJ was better, but I am not sure how.  Certainly the Cat 5 had teflon insulation.  Hm, I was puzzled.  Oh, well.

6.  Goertz HT   - Wonderful stuff.  The Goertz HT was the cheap variety of Geortz cable, but I don't think it's made anymore.  It's very clean & quiet.   For about 8 months I was lazy and left 89259 on my left speaker and Goertz on my right speaker.  Since I was testing/swapping speakers in my system I didn't bother to evenly distribute the wire.  After about 8 months I was having a problem that I just couldn't figure-out.  One tweeter had some hash that simply wouldn't dissappear.  I considered the problem for about 2 weeks, then looked at the 89259 on the left speaker.  Ahhhhh!  I replaced the doube run of 89259 with a single run of Goertz - oh yes.  The hash was gone, and the music came through.  I promptly ordered another run of Goertz for a bi-wire setup, and am very happy with this.  I compared it with some fire-hose big $ cable a while back and the Goertz did very well.

I must also admit testing speaker wire internally behind the woofer of my 1801.  I tried Goertz, 89259, twisted Romex, and plain 14-16ga OFC copper stranded.  I couldn't hear any difference among them.  Since the plain OFC copper is easy to work with, I use it.

Using various wire behind the tweeter of the 1801 was very different.  I could hear changes with every wire.  I preferred the Goertz MI1, the tried the Goertz 1:4 magnet wire.  It worked.  I heard little/no change in sound quality.  I will continue sending the Goertz 1:4 magnet wire with my kits and using it inside my speakers.

I have not tried twisted Romex in an 8' configuration between amp and speakers.

The 1801s are setup for biwire (4 posts per speaker), but any wire can jumper the terminals.

My recommendation...

I'll send you some 20ga Goertz 1:4 magnet wire for your tweeter if you wish.  Try this wire on the tweeter, and some twisted Romex on the woofer.  Then, if you wanna get fancy, try Goertz.

I must admit hearing very little difference between a single run and double run of Goertz on my speakers.  I think a single run of MI1 would be fine.  Other's opinions on this matter are very welcome.

My 2c.

[stvnharr]

Randy,
Here's some more.
BTW, I have built Dave's speaker and we've had some of these discussions.
Don't fiddle with your amp unless you know what you are doing!!!!!
Changing caps in DC coupling applications does help, but you gotta know the circuitry of your amp, and a bunch of other stuff as well.
Changing caps in high pass filter to the tweeter is another story.   I changed from Dave's high quality cap to the very best and most expensive and didn't hear any difference.   I'm also a little high frequency shy in hearing.   Of course, the pricey caps didn't make anything worse either.
Speaker wire can get to be a long story as everyone has one.   Yes it can make a difference.   And the difference isn't necessarily related to money spent, ie more is not necessarily better, just more expensive.
A couple things to keep in mind - bass reproduction depends a fair bit on AWG of the wire, ie bigger is better up to a point.   Wires like Kimber are usually said to be bright as they have small awg and don't carry the bass overly well.   I've been there a long time ago, and done that.
Goertz is very good wire, no question.   Check the cost.
The best value is to make your own wires, kits from diycable.com are good value and will get you most of what you desire.   They also come put together, but the most value is in DoinItYourself.
DON'T bother with biwire, double the money and little to no benefit.
DON'T worry about wire inside the speaker, Dave will give you good stuff.
DON'T use the jumper bars that come on the terminals, use real wire, or have Dave solder the leads inside to one of the terminals.

Hope this helps and didn't confuse you any.

[David Ellis]

And a couple of thoughts for clarificaiton.

What capacitor replaced the SoniCap in your speakers?  Did you try a AudioCap Theta?

Thanks especially for your comments on Bi-Wire.  I am starting to agree there is very little impact.  I totally agree that a single run of Goertz is better than 2 runs of whatever cheaper stuff is available.  However, I haven't tried the DIY cable you mention below.

Did you try swapping the coupling capacitors on your AKSA?

Also, I must add that Steve has lived with extremely good source equipment for years.  I trust his comments and insight.

Dave

[stvnharr]

Dave,
The PPMF's got replaced with Theta's.   The high pass in present set up has PPMF's, Sonic, & Theta's.

The Aksa design does not have any couplings in the circuitry.   However the amp does have a whole bunch of Black Gates, as well as some fancy resistors.

I failed to mention much about current cabling last night.   Then after posting I remembered that Dennis sells assembled cables.
The cables are from www.chimeralabs.com.   The wire is Vampire CCC 25.5 ga copper.   My speaker wires are all 16 braids, 8+ and 8-.   This is not a beginner project!   I did some interconnects of 2+ and 2- to get the feel of wire braiding.   The prices for assembled speaker cables depends on length and number of braids, and 8ft. cables can be a bit much as there is a lot of wire in the braids.   My cables are only 1 meter, and that equals about 50ft. of wire braid.

My cable journey has been as follows:  Kimber 4TC (the blue stuff), light in the bass - Cardas Golden Hex (pricey even at 50% off, but full bass and everything else as well, a little warm and good match with solid state) - Coincident (neutral cables and not too pricey, especially if bought used) - Chimeras.
One can build a set of Chimera speaker cables for $100-$200 if they are not too long.   Double the price for assembled.   Used Coincident would be less, when available on audiogon.  
Sound, to me, is same for Chimera, Coincident.  Cardas is rich, warmish
but has all the musical details.   Kimber is bass light.
Another thing, only buy used cables, unless making DIY.
DIY is really only way to go if one has the know how.

[Phast Lap]

Dave, I am going to use a single run of Goertz HT. What is the best way to configure my 1801's since they are initially set up for bi-wiring  

[David Ellis]

Good question/

I am not sure Goertz HT remains available.  Goertz might have stopped selling this wire.  I am not sure if vendors still have the Geortz HT.  Goertz MI1 is the viable alternative.  Check www.soniccraft.com for wire.

For using a single wire pair (i.e. no bi-wire) simply place some jumper wires (anything better than tinfoil) across the  + and - terminals of the 1801.

[Phast Lap]

Dave, I have found this on Alpha Cores web site -

http://www.alphacore.com/shop/enter.html?target=Speaker_CablesznCopper.html

is it the same?

[David Ellis]

Well there ya' go!

I just didn't see this stuff from vendors recently.  FYI, the outer insulation on my Goertz HT was pretty cheezy. This has no sonic impact, but can be tedious.  The outer insulation tends to separate.