Tube pre and SS amp or passive pre and digital amp or ....

jswallac · « **on:** 13 May 2004, 12:20 am »

Life was sure a lot simpler before I became more involved in my music listening. It use to be pick a receiver, with "hi-end" deing something like a NAD, "mid-fi" a Denon, and "low-fi" something like a JVC. Now there is the tube versus SS versus digital question, active versus passive versus no preamp, etc. My question is what do others feel about the best direction to go given today's choices.

1) All tube
2) All SS
3) All digital
4) Tube pre and SS amp
5) Tube pre and digital amp
6) SS pre (active or passive) and tube amp
7) SS pre and digital amp

Some other combination

I would also like to know why you like the particular option (e.g., tube pre softens the digital, passive pre is all that is needed with digital, etc.)

Thanks from one confused music lover.

Marbles · « **Reply #1 on:** 13 May 2004, 12:24 am »

For me, I want the tubes or other "flavorings" in my sources and want it as sonically pure everywhere else.

Keep in mind there will be more distortion in your speakers than anywhere else. Then it will be your room next, then the equipment.

Also keep in mind that tube amplifiers generally give off a lot of heat in order to gain amplification. More watts=more heat.

WEEZ · « **Reply #2 on:** 13 May 2004, 01:07 am »

-I agree with Marbles, "flavor" your system with the sources.

As far as tubes vs. solid state; passive vs. active; etc., only you can decide by your own listening sessions. There is no "one" right way to suit everyone.

Usually an active pre-amp (ss or tube) will be more versatile- allowing for more (and varied) source selection- maybe a tape loop,etc.- and may be a buffer for such multiple sources so that your amplifier will always be fed the same impedence.

If you only use one source, such as CD, a very simple passive pre may be all you need (just to control volume).

Remember- it's the music that counts. Build your system around your needs and preferences. Worry less about the technology.

WEEZ

jmsun · « **Reply #3 on:** 13 May 2004, 01:47 am »

Quote from: WEEZ

-I agree with Marbles, "flavor" your system with the sources.

If you only use one source, such as CD ...

CD player is the only source I have, so a passive pre is my best choice in this case?

Marbles · « **Reply #4 on:** 13 May 2004, 01:56 am »

The answer is maybe

What is the output in volts of your CDP and what is the input impedance of your amps?

How effecient are your speakers?

How loud do you listen to music?

jmsun · « **Reply #5 on:** 13 May 2004, 04:41 pm »

I will use Denon 1650AR as CDP, my speaker sensitivity is at 88dB and I don't listen to music very loud. What's your suggestion?

Marbles · « **Reply #6 on:** 13 May 2004, 05:06 pm »

A passive pre would probably work well for you.

Tonto Yoder · « **Reply #7 on:** 13 May 2004, 06:28 pm »

One answer: I use tubes where the signal is relatively small (CDP, preamp and phono preamp but a SS amp: the preamp and amp were sorta made for one another--a BAT VK3i and VK-200. You didn't actually HAVE to buy them together, but customers often chose them as a package.

One question: is there any preamp that's like the B&K Pro5/10 which offered either passive or active use--they suggested using the passive output for purity of signal, but suggested active if not enough volume or dynamics. This might "solve" the matter that Marbles is talking about.

jswallac · « **Reply #8 on:** 13 May 2004, 06:58 pm »

One I know of is the Adcom GFP-750. It can be used as either active or passive.

I appreciate the comments so far but am a little confused by where to add the "flavor." Should the flavor just be added to the source, such as a tubed CDP, or also to the preamp? In addition, has anybody used a tubed pre or CDP with a digital amp?

Carlman · « **Reply #9 on:** 13 May 2004, 07:19 pm »

Quote from: jswallac

One I know of is the Adcom GFP-750. It can be used as either active or passive.

I appreciate the comments so far but am a little confused by where to add the "flavor." Should the flavor just be added to the source, such as a tubed CDP, or also to the preamp? In addition, has anybody used a tubed pre or CDP with a digital amp?

I like a balanced, slightly lively, natural, palpable sound, inner details revealed,... delivered with finesse and balls all at the same time. (tall ask) Plus, my room is kind of small and puts a lot of its character into the sound.

So, with my ear and room in mind.... I found that I didn't care for the Bel Canto DAC2 (SS DAC) and Bel Canto evo2i (digital amp) combo... it was too clinical or exacting to me.. and distracted me from the music. Plugging in an EE minmax tubed cd player to the evo produced a beautiful combination with most of the things I would want. The Minimax CDP w/ Minimax tubed preamp and AKSA SS amp combination wasn't spectacular to me. However, the AKSA is the least SS-ish SS I've ever heard. It doesn't sound tubey either... Overall it's very clean, fast, detailed, and powerful.

Now, if I plugged in a BAT CD player to the Bel... or an Ah Tjoeb or a Unviersal Truth mod'ed DVD player.... I think I could have all the magic, all the micro/macro detail, and have it all be musical.

So tube the source and/or tube the pre... for SS. A tube preamp for phono plus tube CDP plus SS preamp (like the IRD Purist) and then a SS amp would be great to me...
I've heard an all tubes system that wasn't too tubey sound very good too... depended on the speakers and tubes in the chain.

I *think* the tubed preamp would be unnecessary for a digital amp... I'm not sure. I've noticed the biggest issue with digital amps is with what speakers they're driving. Some digital amps sound great with some speakers... and unacceptable in a mismatch. I don't remember all the names of what I've heard but, I think a list needs to be made of people who liked a digital amp with what speakers... and who didn't like the digital with which speakers....

Hope you can get something from this rambling... working while typing every once in a while is difficult to maintain coherence...

-C

Jon L · « **Reply #10 on:** 13 May 2004, 08:11 pm »

Actually, the classic audiophile "wisdom" is to have the source as neutral as possible and to flavor the sound with downstream gear. The rationale being what is lost earlier (i.e. lost detail) cannot be recreated later on, sort of like trying to create HD quality picture with DVD players.

Come to think of it, all of my gain stages are tubed at the moment (except for bass amp), and it's unlikely to change as it literally look a decade to reach its current state of synergistic equilibrium.

BUT if I could start over from fresh (who wouldn't!), I MUST have 2 things nailed in my system. 1) Speaker/Rooom eq/correction, and 2) speaker crossover. This is where a system is made or broken. It doesn't really matter how neutral or lovely the upstream components are if the final reproduction doesn't resemble the signal fed into it.

This means using something along the lines of: Z-system digital eq/room correction/preamp units, TACT RCS units, DEQX units, Behringer digital eq or digital x-over/eq units, dBX digital x-over, Perpetual tech P1 digital correction(if it ever releases more versions), Meridian digital solutions, OR PC software-based solutions for x-over and eq.

Something like VRS hard-drive based digital source-->digital stream to DEQX digital x-over/room correction eq (http://www.e-speakers.com/products/deqx-new.html )-->digital stream to ICE or class D or T digital amps with digital input-->Speakers using almost full-range midrange driver augmented by supertweeter and subwoofer with NO internal crossovers.

Or, you can do it cheaper by building your own audio-only PC with software-based eq/room-correction/crossover-->DIY digital amps-->suitable speakers.

All the current "negatives" reported with digital amps can be eq'd or room-corrected out. These include the reports of "recessed midrange," "sterile highs," lean bass, etc. "Tube warmth" can be dialed in also, perhaps in frequency/time domain eq, or later with harmonic-distortion generating circuitry (let's face it, it's the lovely even-order tube distortions).

jswallac · « **Reply #11 on:** 13 May 2004, 08:33 pm »

Thank you all who have shared your wisdom! It really helps to hear from those that have spent the time (and dollars) to figure out what does and does not work. While I certainly agree that we all have different ears to please, it still helps to learn what other knowledgable ears think.

Paul L · « **Reply #12 on:** 14 May 2004, 06:32 pm »

Obviously I am with Jon L. I believe from the source to the predriver stage should be as neutral as possible and that is why we make our own passive. The favour should be the poweramp/speaker combination.

hifitommy · « **Reply #13 on:** 15 May 2004, 08:23 pm »

"(e.g., tube pre softens the digital"

proerly functioning tubed electronics do not soften ANYTHING.

my system: http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/588.html

going to the arc preamp from the adcom gfp565, freqency extremes extended at both ends, dynamics improved to a great degree, and tonal coloration became more accurate and vivid. using tubes as a tone control is a mistake. use them for their realism. as you see, i use ss amplification. this gives me the power to go loud when needed and still get the benefit of the tubed front end.

ratbbb2 · « **Reply #14 on:** 26 Jun 2005, 09:21 pm »

While not having the experiance of many here on AC as a Lo/Mid fi salesman I grew to like a few products in the what I now consider the "well" (booze) variety. The Onkyo M504 is one of them. I found its sound improved a substatial bit with the introduction of a tube pre, namely the Quicksilver line stage that I didn't care for as much with tube amps. So I would consider a less lively tube pre with at least one SS amp.
ratbbb2/Roger

muralman1 · « **Reply #15 on:** 26 Jun 2005, 09:42 pm »

I like a dash of tubes, and I put it at the beginning, where it costs less, and there is less of it. They are in my modified AudioNote DAC. They add that spaciousness that valves only can. From there the signal moves to a preamp. We can expand a screen to go video, and a switching device is an important convenience.

With my H2O Signature amps, careful preamp choice is a must. I found my trusty Aleph P preamp didn't cut it. A borrowed Adcom 750 did, only in active mode. You really shouldn't use a passive pre on a digital amp, if you want peak performance IMO. I am using an H2O preamp now - a perfect match.

Jay S · « **Reply #16 on:** 27 Jun 2005, 01:00 am »

I went from #4 (tube pre -> SS amp) to #5 (tube pre -> digital amp). I'm very happy with the combo.

I got best results with #4 with a tubed cd player (nOrh CD-1). With #5, my two best sources were previously the Bolder Cable Mensa DI/O and the Scott Nixon Tube Dac, though for very different reasons. I was using a Cary 303 as a transport, since I found that I did not like the way it sounded as a stand-alone player (clinical, loose bass, lack of coherence -> in spite of what the Cary advocates will say). But, it was an excellent transport, way better than a Pioneer DV47Ai universal player, Marantz 9500 uni player or even the Marantz SA14.

I now have a Marantz SA14 SACD player which has been modified by Tube Research Labs (TRL) - note, though TRL makes high end tube gear, the mod is SS, not tubed. The TRL is neutral but very coherent and musical.

I think that my Joule tube pre helps a bit with the musicality, with is consistent with the point above to have a neutral source then add a bit of coloring downstream. In comparison with an Eastern Electric MiniMax tube pre, the Joule has a bit less detail but is more musical. I have tried my digital amp with a friend's Tyler Acoustics Linbrook speakers (including the big bass modules) and it sounded powerful and smooth and musical, which is exactly what I want from an amp.

There are lots of digital amps out there now, so you have lots of choices. If I were in the market, I'd keep an eye on NuForce-- good initial reviews but the amps are relatively new and the circuit was recently refined.

Finally, I found that my digital amp GREATLY benefited from a balanced power supply to supply clean power. My amp has a built-in power line noise filter (which the designer felt was borderline overkill) but, still, the soundstage grew tremendously with the balanced power supply. Several other audiophile friends were at my place when I first tried it out and it was really eye-opening.

Last point: try to buy used... not only do you get better value you also minimize the risk if in case you find that a combo doesn't work too well together.

Have fun.

_scotty_ · « **Reply #17 on:** 27 Jun 2005, 01:22 am »

I find that I am satisfied with the sound of the source itself and do not knowingly try to add flavors or colorations to information that is on the original recording. My goal has always been to have High Fidelity reproduction of my source,ie [try to reproduce only what was on the recording with nothing added or lost if possible].
It works for me. Scotty

Dmason · « **Reply #18 on:** 27 Jun 2005, 01:40 am »

I agree with Scotty, and have a similar set up with a high quality, neutral sounding source, passive "pre amp," and well implemented digital amp, T amps in both cases, no need for tube coloration. Tried it with several excellent examples, and found no "need," to my surprise. I actually found that it detracted more than it added. This was not expected.

Using high sensitivity wide range drivers with no crossover between ~60-8000+Hz, direct coupled to the amp made the biggest difference of all.

I recently had the chance to listen to a high quality, and highly complicated system with several components chained between expensive interconnects, which was considered well thought out and researched, and it could not match my minimalist system for overall musicality. The difference was not subtle. I have no ownership-based biases, simply that the difference was far greater than I would have expected.

flintstone · « **Reply #19 on:** 27 Jun 2005, 01:47 pm »

I'm using a tubed Audioprism Mantissa preamp with a Krell Ksa-250 to drive my Apogee Duetta Signatures. I was using a Bent Audio TVC but system and room changes required going back to an active preamp.

The Bent Audio passive was so good that it took me almost a year to find an active preamp it's equal...turned out to be a preamp I knew nothing about, and tubes to boot!.

Dave