Analog-Tape-Can-Never-Be-HD

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #60 on:** 28 Feb 2012, 05:58 am »

Oh, I just had a thought that I can't resist interjecting (you know, don't you?) . . are you a romantic or a pragmatist? If we were all the same we wouldn't be having this discussion, maybe even history. I suppose you can be both, sorta, but come on.

Rclark · « **Reply #61 on:** 28 Feb 2012, 06:26 am »

I am full on both. That's why I'm in this hobby. Romantic but always trying to maximize maximize maximize (all of my gear is heavily upgraded). Gemini.

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #62 on:** 28 Feb 2012, 07:01 am »

Thank you, Clark, for replying. Must I call you Clark or Rclark? I wish you could hear what I just listened to, Volume One, Mark Levinson Acoustic Recordings (fuggetabout the organ recitals, go for side two, the choral) and Live at Montreux- Darol Anger and Barbara Higbie Quintet (Windhan Hill). That one may be obtainable more easily, but the former is more than well worth the effort, if you had a respectable analog front end, that is. You can hear them here for the price of a plane ticket. It's a wholesomeness, humaness thing, bro, and the space is so continuously tangible to the senses. It surprises the analytical brain because it's beyond that. It's not like a recording or can be. I mean well, sir.

Rclark · « **Reply #63 on:** 28 Feb 2012, 08:17 am »

I wish I could have heard it too! I have no doubt that you have a fantastic system that puts my fumbling first attempt to utter shame. Reza is my first, but I often go by my easier middle name, Clark. Actually, maybe I just might take you up on that someday, the plane ticket. Sit around, talk about boxing, and listen to your all analogue system.

It's HARD being an audiophile noob. Trying to discern what is true or not, when all you want is a definitive place to stand. There are warring factions. Blood fueds.Everything you've learned, is true. Nothing you've learned is true. Buy with confidence!

...I feel like I have a pretty good handle on things now, thanks to the awesome people here. And I am having FUN.

BobRex · « **Reply #64 on:** 28 Feb 2012, 01:42 pm »

Quote from: jimdgoulding on 27 Feb 2012, 09:35 pm

I second that, Clark, for sure. The experience of my driving my active speakers direct with a first generation CDP sans a pre-amp wasn't very fulfilling, very neutral, tho, and neither was my friend's uber high end computer audio, also very neutral. Re-inserting my pre-amp gave the music some palpability and, er, yes, color. I'm a sucker for tube pre's, I suppose, I have two. Or, maybe I'm a sucker for the results, rather. I have heard a Spectral SS amp and pre driving some electrostats than was very becoming and very detailed. Had a Linn analog front end, sorry. I could live with that system, oh yeah! In a New York minute.

I'm open minded to something like a DCS Pucini DAC, mind you, even the new OPPO. What prompted my first post here was a hi-rez experience that disappointed my expectations. Just didn't involve me like the same music heard on his turntable previously.

Jim, let's think about what you have written for a second. You claim that re-inserting your preamp gave the music some palpability and you are willing to call that color. Now, was that "color" there at the live side of the recording? I say: yes it was! Was that "color" captured by the recording? Now that's a tricky question, and one that only the recording engineer (or someone at the session) can answer. Assuming it was (again, a big assumption) then where did it go on playback? Is it possible that the "very neutral" equipment is stripping it away, or hiding it? And if that's the case, then is the "very neutral" equipment really neutral or is it colored?

Now if that palpability doesn't survive the recording process, then just how high rez is the recording? I've heard many recording that have cpatured that palpable sense sufficiently enough that it can be heard on both tube and SS equipment. Ironically, most of the recordings were older, probably recorded on tubed equipment. Think pre mid-seventies, the Blue Notes, early Deccas, even early rock recordings have it.

I get frustrated when I read someone (not pointing fingers at you, just using your post to get my point across) saying that palpability is a coloration and therefore its presence indicates a colored piece of equipment. Palpability is present at live music; it's part and parcel of the sound, and what helps differentiate live from Memorex. The lack of palpability is the true coloration. And the inability to properly reproduce palpability points to the truly colored equipment.

Rclark · « **Reply #65 on:** 28 Feb 2012, 07:47 pm »

Yeah. I'm still going all SS/digital. No tubes. I was interested for a brief moment after watching a 1000 watt tube amp playing organ music and watching the electrical storm.

But I've been closely reading the comments from a certain amp designer and I now have no interest in tubes whatsoever. I think nirvana can be achieved without them.

On the subject of an analoue front end. I just see it as a huge expense for a system that is becoming rapidly antiquated in light of new digital technologies and the general continued evolution. Vinyl can't get much better. Digital/SS can and will.

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #66 on:** 28 Feb 2012, 11:36 pm »

Quote from: BobRex on 28 Feb 2012, 01:42 pm

Jim, let's think about what you have written for a second. You claim that re-inserting your preamp gave the music some palpability and you are willing to call that color. Now, was that "color" there at the live side of the recording? I say: yes it was! Was that "color" captured by the recording? Now that's a tricky question, and one that only the recording engineer (or someone at the session) can answer. Assuming it was (again, a big assumption) then where did it go on playback? Is it possible that the "very neutral" equipment is stripping it away, or hiding it? And if that's the case, then is the "very neutral" equipment really neutral or is it colored?

Now if that palpability doesn't survive the recording process, then just how high rez is the recording? I've heard many recording that have cpatured that palpable sense sufficiently enough that it can be heard on both tube and SS equipment. Ironically, most of the recordings were older, probably recorded on tubed equipment. Think pre mid-seventies, the Blue Notes, early Deccas, even early rock recordings have it.

I get frustrated when I read someone (not pointing fingers at you, just using your post to get my point across) saying that palpability is a coloration and therefore its presence indicates a colored piece of equipment. Palpability is present at live music; it's part and parcel of the sound, and what helps differentiate live from Memorex. The lack of palpability is the true coloration. And the inability to properly reproduce palpability points to the truly colored equipment.

BobbyRex, if I read you right, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I meant palpability as in fleshed out presence and color as in richness of tonal color, not coloration. I wouldn't be looking at equipment that can't deliver believable presence and tone, or space and dynamics. Thrilling is more like it. But, if I had to be on one side of literal neutrality or the other, I'll take romance. That Spectral combo I listened to once upon of time was the finest SS reproduction of instruments and detail I have heard to date. But, I'm very happy with my tube pre costing a bunch less. The guy who designed and built my speakers, Meridian's Bob Stuart, is another pretty savvy SS guy. Digital, too

Reza, if I were a young guy, I'd likely be thinking like you are thinking. Cheers.

http://www.meridian-audio.com/the-collection/loudspeakers/dsp8000-digital-active-loudspeaker.aspx

doug s. · « **Reply #67 on:** 29 Feb 2012, 05:13 am »

Quote from: Rclark on 25 Feb 2012, 07:12 pm

Yeah it's not case closed just buy records. Look at how powerfully digital is advancing. Qol. Active basstraps. 32 bit recordings. Digital class d amps superior to their rivals. Truly, the writing is on the wall.

qøl? it can be used w/winyl. i have a deqx dsp x-over in my system, and winyl still sounds better than digital.

ask anyone who has wisited woodsyi's home and listened to his stellar rig. fabulous digital and analog set-up. the digital sounds great, but the analog sounds like music.

afaik, every person ever to pass thru rim's room has had the same reaction. so, no, i do not think it's different folks listening to/for different things.

mind you, i am talking redbook; i am not familiar enough w/hi-rez to pass yudgment...

ymmv,

doug s.

doug s. · « **Reply #68 on:** 29 Feb 2012, 05:20 am »

Quote from: Rclark on 28 Feb 2012, 07:47 pm

Yeah. I'm still going all SS/digital. No tubes. I was interested for a brief moment after watching a 1000 watt tube amp playing organ music and watching the electrical storm.

But I've been closely reading the comments from a certain amp designer and I now have no interest in tubes whatsoever. I think nirvana can be achieved without them.

rclark, earlier you said "it's hard being an audiophile noob.." well, i don't wanna push the subject too far - after all, this is the bryston circle, even tho the topic initially started off asking about whether analog can be hi rez. (analog is hi-rez, imo). but, re: tubes, i have only one comment - never say never.

doug s.

Rclark · « **Reply #69 on:** 29 Feb 2012, 05:29 am »

There's always system number 3.

doug s. · « **Reply #70 on:** 29 Feb 2012, 06:09 am »

Quote from: Rclark on 29 Feb 2012, 05:29 am

There's always system number 3.

don't blame me when it makes it into system #1...

doug s.

Rclark · « **Reply #71 on:** 29 Feb 2012, 06:12 am »

still gotta check out the Melos.

BobRex · « **Reply #72 on:** 29 Feb 2012, 01:52 pm »

Quote from: jimdgoulding on 28 Feb 2012, 11:36 pm

BobbyRex, if I read you right, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I meant palpability as in fleshed out presence and color as in richness of tonal color, not coloration. I wouldn't be looking at equipment that can't deliver believable presence and tone, or space and dynamics. Thrilling is more like it. But, if I had to be on one side of literal neutrality or the other, I'll take romance. That Spectral combo I listened to once upon of time was the finest SS reproduction of instruments and detail I have heard to date. But, I'm very happy with my tube pre costing a bunch less. The guy who designed and built my speakers, Meridian's Bob Stuart, is another pretty savvy SS guy. Digital, too

Reza, if I were a young guy, I'd likely be thinking like you are thinking. Cheers.

http://www.meridian-audio.com/the-collection/loudspeakers/dsp8000-digital-active-loudspeaker.aspx

No, I read you right. I agree with you 100%; what I was trying to get across (and possibly failed) is that the tonal color and fleshed out presence is a function of live music, and any process that fails to either capture or reproduce those characteristics cannot be HD. Analog can and typically does, assuming the engineer didn't dick around too much. Many of the SS/ digital "fanatics", or those that just consider tubes to be colored as a generic blanket statement (Reza?), fail to realize (or accept) that much SS/digital is also colored in that it fails to properly reproduce the tonal color and presence of live music. These people are frustrating in that their own dogma prevents them from seeing (hearing?) both sides of the argument.

For the record, I too have heard some kick-ass SS systems. I even sold a few in my day, including Bryston. But long term exposure to such systems proved that while they did some things better than "the colored systems", overall I wouldn't want to keep such a system. Those are my prejudices and my priorities; I place less import on things like "kick ass" bass which in truth don't exist in the real world anyway.

bummrush · « **Reply #73 on:** 29 Feb 2012, 03:39 pm »

I place less import on things like "kick ass" bass which in truth don't exist in the real world anyway.////// previous from above EXACTLY CORRECT but 9 of 10 hear that big bang and boom and say man listen to that bass , I just shake my head, this is exactly what the bass is like in so called accurate bass in dig amps peole are wowed by this and they flip thier lids.

konut · « **Reply #74 on:** 29 Feb 2012, 04:03 pm »

Some of us love the fantasy world of church/theater organ, tympany, and Moog synthesizer.

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #75 on:** 29 Feb 2012, 09:53 pm »

OK, Bobby, I understand now and agree. Hey, Konut. Que paso? Check out that Melos, youngblood! I can't offer any opinion about it as I don't have any history with it. Might do you some good to make an inquiry about it here on AC. All the best.

Rclark · « **Reply #76 on:** 29 Feb 2012, 10:12 pm »

Quote from: bummrush on 29 Feb 2012, 03:39 pm

I place less import on things like "kick ass" bass which in truth don't exist in the real world anyway.////// previous from above EXACTLY CORRECT but 9 of 10 hear that big bang and boom and say man listen to that bass , I just shake my head, this is exactly what the bass is like in so called accurate bass in dig amps peole are wowed by this and they flip thier lids.

You have to consider modern bassmusic as the reason for that, and the big-sub-in-a-car sound.

I'm in your camp though, i no longer run my cheapie sub with my Maggie's because accuracy and speed and cohesion is where it's at. If the Ncore amps can make my bass even more powerful i might never run a sub again.and i like bass music!

doug s. · « **Reply #77 on:** 29 Feb 2012, 11:45 pm »

i will never not run subs. but, i will never run a single sub, either.

accuracy, not boom is also important to me. which is why "cheapo" subs aren't my fave. even tho you can find decent subs w/o breaking the bank, if you are a prudent shopper. and, using a quality active x-over w/at least a pair of subs, will help immensely in getting decent performance out of inexpensive subs. regarding amplification, for you tube heads, all the more reason to go w/active x-over and subs - use s/s on subs and tubes above...

even w/acoustic music, having a system w/good subs actively crossed over can be an eye-opening experience. check out:

http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/store/artist/album/0,,201730,00.html

(1994 - killer album)

ymmv,

doug s.

konut · « **Reply #78 on:** 1 Mar 2012, 12:20 am »

Aloha Jimbo! No pasa nada, actualy less than nada. After a year of being unemployed I can't check out squat. Otherwise everything is great. No sub is better than a crappy sub. But theres no substitute for a good sub. Subjectively speaking.

ricko01 · « **Reply #79 on:** 2 Mar 2012, 11:03 am »

Quote from: JBLMVBC on 26 Feb 2012, 07:02 am

When I want to treat my ears, my LP 12 does the job. But let's face it too, the great recording engineers are rare and technology is no substitute to their craft.

Thats true and I think to a high degree the "golden age" of vinyl, be it the 50's/60's for classical and jazz to the 60's/70's for rock, were based around a limited set of tracks available in the studio.

The "less is more" really plays out here. As we got more tracks available, the art of recording a live group was lost and so the immedicacy of a natural performance was lost.

Sure you can marvel at Dark Side of the Moon or A Night at the Opera (and sure these were 70's albums!!) but these to some degree set in the rot that we fight today.