[ricko01]

So this is my (long) story.

I moved countries 3 years ago into a new house with an empty room shell for dedicated listening.

Took 2 years of part-time work to complete the acoustical room treatments. Was finished in maybe September last year.

Once a lot of the dirty work was done, I did move in a skeleton system of Slimdevices Transporter, Bryston BD1 and BP26 and downstream monoblocks and speakers but not my analog rig.

Spent time with this listening for pleasure but also fine tuning the room and speaker/chair placement.

So basically I have been listening to digital for the last two years exclusively.. and the room sounds great.

Last month I finally setup my analogue rig and spent the required time tuning VTA etc.

Then.............I played one track…"St. Louis Blues" from a 45rpm pressing of Count Basie's Farmer's Market Barbecue.

WOW........

There was no difference between digital and analog in terms of the soundstage, instrument placement, depth, timbre etc.. basically everything was the same but for two very important differences.

And I will try and explain the differences.

First was the punch of the horns… they came at you incredible fast and “searing” in nature. Not that searing is bad just that the sound erupted from the blackness of the background.

Secondly I noticed that the “rasp” around the trumpet bell was well more raspy and more importantly the trailing edges, as the sound from instrument die away, lasted longer aand was audible for longer.

I am a big Jazz buff so I know what live instruments sounds like and have had the digital representation of Jazz etched into my brain over the last two years as I have been doing an overload of critical listening in tuning my room and playing that one vinyl track was like a burning bush experience.

So screw the technical measures such as dynamic range, wow/flutter, channel seperation etc… This Count Basie album was all analog (recording/mixing/media/playback) and it was better… and I am no luddite in terms of computer based playback.

So where is my “Vinyl Is Final” tee shirt… must be somewhere with my “Rap is Crap” one.

Peter

[jimdgoulding]

What Peter said.   

Btw, I didn't make it to Dave's house.  I had surgery on one of my ears on Wednesday- just the outer ear- and that put me well under the weather.  But, I'm agoin soon and will share.  I dunno what Dave's system is composed of but I know he has both analog and digital front ends.  Gonna listen via both with a couple same albums, I think.

What the Lady said, too.  Hi, Laura.

[spinner]

  Analogue is best for analogue . Good digital has to be all digital and done on more recent equipment. I find the earlier  material (1984 -around 2000) to be superior on LP. but not so much now with better digital  recording and playback gear  IMO   

[Rclark]

Yeah it's not case closed just buy records. Look at how powerfully digital is advancing. Qol. Active basstraps. 32 bit recordings. Digital class d amps superior to their rivals. Truly, the writing is on the wall.

[spinner]

 Ditto that....

[jimdgoulding]

I'm wondering if analog and digital enthusiasts actually listen for the same things or have the same values?  I'm wondering if there might not be a dichotomy at play. 

[ricko01]

I'm wondering if analog and digital enthusiasts actually listen for the same things or have the same values?  I'm wondering if there might not be a dichotomy at play.

I have never thought about it in that way (nor seen it stated that way before) but I think you are right.

It's in the same vein as solid state verses tube power amps "debate".

Tube amps have more distortion but its distortion our hearing system likes (or at least many people like).  Solid state has much less distortion but it is typically of the type we dont like (as this type of distortion never occurs naturally in the real world)

So yep, your right. Whatever the inherent distortion detractors of vinyl use as the corner stone of their arguments, maybe just maybe, that type of distortion appeals to some people’s ears and these same vinyl lovers find digital sound uninvolving, cold and sterile due to a lack of this kind of distortion or a different kind of distortion.

In my own personal space, I for example cant stand speakers toed in towards me, they need to point straight ahead. Is this because the direct toed in sound verses the diffuse alternative overloads my hearing system?. While everyone hears differently, there will be major likes and dislikes that large numbers of us can agree upon.

Now where is my "Analog Rules.. Digital for Fools" tee shirt.

[ricko01]

I dunno what Dave's system is composed of but I know he has both analog and digital front ends.  Gonna listen via both with a couple same albums, I think.

I think unfortunately that that type of comparison is fraught with false positives (or negatives).

The production of both versions will (potentially) have happened at different times/space/equipment/staff etc.

I think the only true comparison is with analog and digital media captured at the same time during the record production process. This removes most of the variables but still leaves the art of cutting the vinyl master up for debate.

But if we take a well produced 45rpm vinyl record cut by say Ken Gray and a hi digital version taken from the same recording event, then the comparison is valid.

But you then get the debate about was the mixing desk analog or digital..cause a vinyl record mixed with a digital desk… is it really valid (analog viewpoint) And visa versa, an ADC off an analogue desk… is it really valid (digital viewpoint). And was the master from tape or hard disk?

Damn… another debate that can never be settled.

[Rclark]

I have never thought about it in that way (nor seen it stated that way before) but I think you are right.

It's in the same vein as solid state verses tube power amps "debate".

Tube amps have more distortion but its distortion our hearing system likes (or at least many people like).  Solid state has much less distortion but it is typically of the type we dont like (as this type of distortion never occurs naturally in the real world)

So yep, your right. Whatever the inherent distortion detractors of vinyl use as the corner stone of their arguments, maybe just maybe, that type of distortion appeals to some people’s ears and these same vinyl lovers find digital sound uninvolving, cold and sterile due to a lack of this kind of distortion or a different kind of distortion.

I think it's best to leave the colorations and distortions for the artists in the studio, and then for your home system and amps to play it back as transparently as possible, rather than just having euphonic distortion always there no matter what because your tube amp is there coloring everything you play with the same distortion on every song you play.

[ricko01]

I think it's best to leave the colorations and distortions for the artists in the studio, and then for your home system and amps to play it back as transparently as possible, rather than just having euphonic distortion always there no matter what because your tube amp is there coloring everything you play with the same distortion on every song you play.

Agreed if we had a perfect playback system.. but everything in the recording and playback chain distorts and in fact your speakers are the worst offenders (along with your room).

So essentially we all choose the types of distortions that please us. So I don’t think listening via tube power amps is any more wrong than solid state or electostatic verses dynamic speakers. Each distorts in various ways.

I don’t buy into any particular technology being better or worse than another (say the SET fanatics with 3W amps onto 105db horns)…each technology provides an imperfect view into what was a perfect live event.

So whatever aspect(s) of the imperfect technology gives us a “hard on” (or the female equivalent) when listening to music is valid for the listener.

[JBLMVBC]

I wish anyone a demo with mastertapes 76cm/s 2 track analog on a pair of JBL 4343 before daring to suggest that analog tape cannot be HD.

As for Ricko's experience of the Count Basie 45RPM, I share his fun! I enjoy 45RPMs of classical music Mercury or Decca in particular. I do have in fact, the same pieces in CD, SACD, 33 and 45 and there is no photo finish: 45 wins.

And the beauty of vinyl? It's just a needle away, no computer.
And the curse of vinyl? It's just a dust click away, no computer.

It doesn't mean that hi rez digital will not reach a point of excellence , even superiority. But let's not forget that DSD was specifically brought to bring back the qualities of analog that were lost with CDs limitations. To claim CDs can be HD is as ridiculous as claiming 4.75cm/s is HiFi.

[ricko01]

It doesn't mean that hi rez digital will not reach a point of excellence , even superiority. But let's not forget that DSD was specifically brought to bring back the qualities of analog that were lost with CDs limitations. To claim CDs can be HD is as ridiculous as claiming 4.75cm/s is HiFi.

Again I am agnostics on formats/media but do you think that if someone today finds vinyl/analog more appealing than digital, that faster and faster digital sampling, smarter digital filters etc will every get to a point that the fundamental way digital encodes/decodes a musical event will win over the die hards?

There is also the (unrelated to sound quality) emotional attachment to vinyl, a more hands on, tactile way of interfacing with your system, the joy of rummaging through your collection looking for that album, the memory of the hunt to find a treasured pressing, the experience of holding the 12” cover, reading the notes and seeing the history of its existence in the covers dog ears etc etc.

For many, that emotional connection to the overall experience of listening to music is lost in a download world. The music becomes a commodity because the effort to obtain it requires so little energy.

[Diamond Dog]

For many, that emotional connection to the overall experience of listening to music is lost in a download world. The music becomes a commodity because the effort to obtain it requires so little energy.

What a facinating statement. Outstanding, sir. Outstanding. 

D.D.

[Crimson]

What a facinating statement. Outstanding, sir. Outstanding. 

D.D.

I disagree. If its digital it's a commodity?

Either you like it or you don't, the medium be damned.

Here's where subjectivity rears its somewhat ugly head: I'll listen to something I kind of like in digital vs something I treasure via analog. Doesn't work that way.

If it you need to pick, clean, rub, demagnetize, wash, balance, measure, and then clean again, it better sound damn good.

[Diamond Dog]

I disagree. If its digital it's a commodity?

Either you like it or you don't, the medium be damned.

Here's where subjectivity rears its somewhat ugly head: I'll listen to something I kind of like in digital vs something I treasure via analog. Doesn't work that way.

If it you need to pick, clean, rub, demagnetize, wash, balance, measure, and then clean again, it better sound damn good.

There's only one source in my system, Crimson and it's digital. I was actually thinking about the tactile aspect as opposed to just a stream of data. Call me old-fashioned...

No black circles were spun during the creation of this post. Not that there's anything wrong with that...

D.D.

[JBLMVBC]

Good question.
Certainly vinyl has its limitations: get the right pressing, no clicks, limited playing time at 45RPM etc... Yet the shear presence of a great disc is incredible as it breathes life, something even the 33 RPM cannot really do completly.

The immediacy of vinyl compared to the computer idiosyncrasies is refreshing to me.
I like my BDP-1 as a tool when the source was digital to start with. When I want to treat my ears, my LP 12 does the job. But let's face it too, the great recording engineers are rare and technology is no substitute to their craft.

For instance, I do not care much for those jazz albums where everything is mixed together but was recorded separately. Oh sure it can sound great and be well done, except that you cannot spatially get a sense of the group physical position in front of you. That's when you may marvel at the product but it's not recording music making, it's music building.

Finally there is the repertoire, the music. I wish that the CD repertoire were re-released in high rez files. That would be a priority so the catalogue is wide. The same happened at the start of digital, with the limited catalogue Denon disc collection. So it takes time and willingness.
I also think that mass market digital has contributed to lower the sound quality of consumer products. Hence this revival of vinyl and its shades of grey instead of the in-your-face stuff CD product.
That in turn has affected the quality of listening. I think many consumer products are geared to easy listening, convenience to mix etc... Press a button and the computer does the rest, except when you need rebooting. Making background noise available is not what I seek.

FWIW...

Again I am agnostics on formats/media but do you think that if someone today finds vinyl/analog more appealing than digital, that faster and faster digital sampling, smarter digital filters etc will every get to a point that the fundamental way digital encodes/decodes a musical event will win over the die hards?

There is also the (unrelated to sound quality) emotional attachment to vinyl, a more hands on, tactile way of interfacing with your system, the joy of rummaging through your collection looking for that album, the memory of the hunt to find a treasured pressing, the experience of holding the 12” cover, reading the notes and seeing the history of its existence in the covers dog ears etc etc.

For many, that emotional connection to the overall experience of listening to music is lost in a download world. The music becomes a commodity because the effort to obtain it requires so little energy.

[vegasdave]

Sound is vibration.  Analog reproduction begins with vibration.  Matter has a vibration.  In some distant future we may be eating digitized food.  I'll take organic over synthetic anyday.  Some part of me is made happier, I think, or maybe it's just a feeling.

Viva Analog! 

[jimdgoulding]

Last night I listened to an audiophile pressing/re-master of Jack Johnson's Brushtree Fairytales.  Something I noticed was that his voice was completely edgeless and full and rich to the point of distraction with no air around it.  The drum kit, on the other hand, had tons of air and acoustic space around it and sounded real.  It is an example of how many popular records are made, I expect, and I enjoyed it tho I can see it being better yet. It made me think of this . .

No one has mentioned direct-to-disc recordings unless I missed it.  I listened to some of those, too, and a couple were 45rpm.  For those who may not know, DTD is produced without a master tape.  The only thing between the microphone and the master is the cutting head and some cable.  I think that's right.  Well, I suppose there is an amplifier.  Made this way, playback has quite a lot more immediacy and range in frequency and dynamics.  Mapleshade CD's are the closest thing to it that I've heard on silver.  Cymbal sound on 'shades is silvery and extended but on DTD there is more presence and weight.  And, it doesn't sound silvery.  It sounds brassy.  The former may be a preference of the recording engineer and not the medium, dunno.  Of course, this is with my front ends and ears.   

Question.  In anyone's experience, do you think that digital captures space as well as an open mic and tape?  I have some classical recordings that make me doubt it.  And, in reference to 'different strokes' and that, I bettin that we analog enthusiasts listen to quite a bit more classical music (ususally made on location) than our digital counterparts.  If we were to do an age poll, what might that reveal, I'm wondering.  Experience, perhaps?  A wider range of tastes?

[JBLMVBC]

Indeed, I am a classical music enthusiast (my wife is a concert pianist) and the breathing you get from a well recorded 45RPM is incredible. I just listened to Daphnis and Chloe Monteux Decca re-issue, it's excellent! Most Mercury are also like this.

As for the Direct to disc, I recall buying a couple of those in 33RPM. It is excellent too but repertoire is really limited.

As for your voice/drum example, this is exactly the point I try to make regarding the jazz albums that are "built". If it's Bjork, it works because it is her style. If it's Ella, it doesn't. looking forward to Ella's 45RPM No Man write my epitaph upcoming release, piano and voice. I have the 33 and the 45 should be breathtaking!

Last night I listened to an audiophile pressing/re-master of Jack Johnson's Brushtree Fairytales.  Something I noticed was that his voice was completely edgeless and full and rich to the point of distraction with no air around it.  The drum kit, on the other hand, had tons of air and acoustic space around it and sounded real.  It is an example of how many popular records are made, I expect, and I enjoyed it tho I can see it being better yet. It made me think of this . .

(...)
Question.  In anyone's experience, do you think that digital captures space as well as an open mic and tape?  I have some classical recordings that make me doubt it.  And, in reference to 'different strokes' and that, I bettin that we analog enthusiasts listen to quite a bit more classical music (ususally made on location) than our digital counterparts.  If we were to do an age poll, what might that reveal, I'm wondering.  Experience, perhaps?  A wider range of tastes?

[jimdgoulding]

I think it's best to leave the colorations and distortions for the artists in the studio, and then for your home system and amps to play it back as transparently as possible, rather than just having euphonic distortion always there no matter what because your tube amp is there coloring everything you play with the same distortion on every song you play.

I second that, Clark, for sure.  The experience of my driving my active speakers direct with a first generation CDP sans a pre-amp wasn't very fulfilling, very neutral, tho, and neither was my friend's uber high end computer audio, also very neutral.  Re-inserting my pre-amp gave the music some palpability and, er, yes, color.  I'm a sucker for tube pre's, I suppose, I have two.  Or, maybe I'm a sucker for the results, rather.  I have heard a Spectral SS amp and pre driving some electrostats than was very becoming and very detailed.  Had a Linn analog front end, sorry.  I could live with that system, oh yeah!  In a New York minute.

I'm open minded to something like a DCS Pucini DAC, mind you, even the new OPPO.  What prompted my first post here was a hi-rez experience that disappointed my expectations.  Just didn't involve me like the same music heard on his turntable previously.