Analog-Tape-Can-Never-Be-HD

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James Tanner

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SoundGame

Re: Analog-Tape-Can-Never-Be-HD
« Reply #1 on: 17 Feb 2012, 08:37 pm »
Interesting read:

http://www.itrax.com/Community/content.php?140-Analog-Tape-Can-Never-Be-HD-Here-s-Why

james

Very "ear" opening article James.  Since I've not had the opportunity to try hi-rez tracks on my kit, as yet, I'm unable to test this theory i.e. that analogue based recordings, even if hi-rez can never equal moder high-fidelity digital recording.  This would also imply that there is no way for a modern digitally mastered track to sound better on vinyl since it would mean converting the digital native recording to an analogue LP and inducing other factors such as cutting errors etc.

Taking this to it's end result the best reference recordings should be the most modern, using the most modern digital equipment and mastered to a digital lossless file.

I'm wondering what people experience is.

redbook

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Re: Analog-Tape-Can-Never-Be-HD
« Reply #2 on: 17 Feb 2012, 09:22 pm »
 This is the most significant post in ages .Thanks for the great read. :thumb: :thumb:

skunark

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Re: Analog-Tape-Can-Never-Be-HD
« Reply #3 on: 17 Feb 2012, 09:48 pm »
Interesting read but if his only point is dynamic range is better with digital vs analog then that's not enough to toss out analog.   I can't wait to read the additional parts.

srb

Re: Analog-Tape-Can-Never-Be-HD
« Reply #4 on: 17 Feb 2012, 10:48 pm »
Interesting read but if his only point is dynamic range is better with digital vs analog then that's not enough to toss out analog.   I can't wait to read the additional parts.

Did we read the same article?  Part I also addressed deteriorating frequency response through multi-generational analog mastering, phase fluctuations between channels and crosstalk between channels.  The different types of tape noise also introduced distortions that were above and beyond pure dynamic range differences.
 
Steve

skunark

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Re: Analog-Tape-Can-Never-Be-HD
« Reply #5 on: 18 Feb 2012, 12:20 am »

Did we read the same article?  Part I also addressed deteriorating frequency response through multi-generational analog mastering, phase fluctuations between channels and crosstalk between channels.  The different types of tape noise also introduced distortions that were above and beyond pure dynamic range differences.
 
Steve

Digital audio introduces quantized noise, jitter, rounding errors, bit-flips etc, which I hope is included in part two.  Every medium has it's faults, but it's going to take a lot more than pointing out that dynamic range is better with digital audio and point out a few known faults with analog tape to prove his thesis at the level he's after (or should be after)      Also sighting a specification doesn't exactly state a whole lot, just look at how many typos we've found in Bryston's own specifications, plus sometimes you are at the limits of the test gear.   Definitely will be a good read though.

srb

Re: Analog-Tape-Can-Never-Be-HD
« Reply #6 on: 18 Feb 2012, 12:33 am »
Digital audio introduces quantized noise, jitter, rounding errors, bit-flips etc, which I hope is included in part two.

Yes, at one point he did say
 
"Another interesting specification on this list is the crosstalk and phase fluctuations that occur between tracks on an analog tape machine. These are not issues with HD PCM digital encoding (not that PCM doesn't have unique issues of its own...I will write about those as well)."
 
Steve

*Scotty*

Re: Analog-Tape-Can-Never-Be-HD
« Reply #7 on: 18 Feb 2012, 12:35 am »
He also limited his discussion to the Nagra IV-S machine's characteristics. A two track 30in./sec machine would have better high frequency extension and overload behavior.
 I would only use the dynamic range argument if I was discussing 24bit PCM recording systems. It might have a real usable dynamic range of 90dB, a -90 sine-wave is actually recognizable before dithering is applied. It may have only 1% THD at a -90 signal level, although I have never seen this subject discussed.
Scotty

PRELUDE

Re: Analog-Tape-Can-Never-Be-HD
« Reply #8 on: 18 Feb 2012, 01:36 am »
great read :thumb:

robb

Re: Analog-Tape-Can-Never-Be-HD
« Reply #9 on: 18 Feb 2012, 02:31 am »
I believe a good magnetic tape recorder is capable of recording at least tones of 30,000 cycles per second even at a tape speed of 7 and one half ips.  I know that my Teac 4 track tape recorder has this spec.  Recording of instruments which have over 20,000 cps harmonics results in beats with the audible portion of their spectrum, resulting in greater realism, as in a live performance.

Rob 

jimdgoulding

Re: Analog-Tape-Can-Never-Be-HD
« Reply #10 on: 18 Feb 2012, 02:51 am »
Sound is vibration.  Analog reproduction begins with vibration.  Matter has a vibration.  In some distant future we may be eating digitized food.  I'll take organic over synthetic anyday.  Some part of me is made happier, I think, or maybe it's just a feeling.

Mike Nomad

Re: Analog-Tape-Can-Never-Be-HD
« Reply #11 on: 18 Feb 2012, 03:14 am »
Very interesting read. My thanks to the OP.

(however)

Not the best title for the article. Based on the title, I would have to say, "wrong." For example, an analog deck being fed by a U-47 has about the same recording (dynamic) range as a digital deck running at 24/96. So, yes, analog tape is indeed Hi-Rez. It's just not the Highest-Rez...

And that is a nice thing about digital. When properly deployed, we can now revisit those tasty analog recordings (like the Mercury Living Presence recordings on 35mm Mag) and hear everything the engineers were while in the control room.

werd

Re: Analog-Tape-Can-Never-Be-HD
« Reply #12 on: 18 Feb 2012, 03:45 pm »
For me what it boils down to is do i prefer the holistic full analogue signal that tape gives me over the dynamic range digital offers. I am refering to playback and not recording. I am also refering to my own personal listening preference. I like listening at late nite listening volumes. Here hi rez has gotten close enough to a full analogue signal where the dynamic range i make a priority. At lower volumes the dynamic range hi-rez gives me allows for nice transients with meaningful leading and trailing edges on cymbals and snares and other beat instruments.

I wouldn't argue those that prefer analogue tape in playback though. I like both.


jimdgoulding

Re: Analog-Tape-Can-Never-Be-HD
« Reply #13 on: 18 Feb 2012, 06:00 pm »
I listened to a friend's upgraded system a few months ago via a hi-rez source.  He has really gone all out for digital.  We listened to an album he had formerly played for me on vinyl and it was wonderful.  Resolution with his new playback was uber fine, sharp as a mosquito's peter, but the life-blood of the instruments, the mid-range bloom, perhaps, had vanished.  It was quite dry and lifeless to me and I just couldn't believe what I was hearing and how anyone could prefer it to what we both had heard previously.  I was too stunned to even discuss it.  Thus, my experience has not been very good.

Favorite album today, Joni Mitchell's Blue.
« Last Edit: 21 Feb 2012, 12:51 pm by jimdgoulding »

Mike Nomad

Re: Analog-Tape-Can-Never-Be-HD
« Reply #14 on: 19 Feb 2012, 09:42 pm »
I brought up dynamic range for the quants who may be reading. I don't find one side of the analog/digital divide to be any more (or less) an indicator of the what I'll refer to in shorthand as "The Organic." It all comes down to the ability to deploy. I've mentioned in other threads touching on the analog vs. digital rap the idea of context: If we are going to make a meaningful comparison of the technologies, digital is about 40 years old (The earliest digital I am aware of is Zappa's live two-channel recording in 1981). So, 40 years along in the analog realm puts us somewhere around 1930. I know which I would prefer to listen to on a regular basis...

From purely a playback perspective, I am never surprised at the love of analog. It can do a pleasing job of hiding a variety of recording and post-production imperfections.

Rclark

Re: Analog-Tape-Can-Never-Be-HD
« Reply #15 on: 19 Feb 2012, 11:41 pm »
Nothing, not even the vinyl age, can last forever.

Rclark

Re: Analog-Tape-Can-Never-Be-HD
« Reply #16 on: 19 Feb 2012, 11:57 pm »
Sound is vibration.  Analog reproduction begins with vibration.  Matter has a vibration.  In some distant future we may be eating digitized food.  I'll take organic over synthetic anyday.  Some part of me is made happier, I think, or maybe it's just a feeling.


This is an illusion. Everything in the universe is "digital", quantized.

For playback, it's merely of case of vinyl still being competitive, but days are numbered.

SoundGame

Re: Analog-Tape-Can-Never-Be-HD
« Reply #17 on: 20 Feb 2012, 03:21 am »

This is an illusion. Everything in the universe is "digital", quantized.

For playback, it's merely of case of vinyl still being competitive, but days are numbered.

We are all made of stardust... :no_see: :no_hear: :no_speak:

KBK

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Re: Analog-Tape-Can-Never-Be-HD
« Reply #18 on: 21 Feb 2012, 01:54 am »
The thing that detractors of analog tend to forget...is that the analog signal is capable of millionth of second (and far better) accuracy in temporal timing between the two different channels.

we hear through two ears and we hear complex harmonics.

this millionth of a second accuracy is within the capacities of even a small 30hz-15khz (-3db) 50 year old tube tube amplifier. throughout  all of it's frequency ranges and in the scope of complex stacked and interleaved harmonic structures.

We listen with both ears, to form the stereo image, not one ear, and one speaker and one channel.

A digital system would have to sample at 2+million samples per second to even come close to that.

With a theoretically perfect zero jitter response, which is in practicality --impossible.

I tried to explain this to people back in the early 90's. No-one was listening.

People are finally getting it.

LP's for example, are so temporally accurate with the placement of inter-channel structures, that a stereo digital system would have to sample at over 7 million samples per second, with no jitter at all..to begin to equal it.

edit; and when you decouple the two given digital channels with seperate clocks..this creates tremendous amounts of micro level noise or hash, where the two channels do not agree with one another in the inter channel micro domain. Thus you damage the very tiny little bits that you spent all that extra money trying to chase down. separate dacs with completely separate boxes per channel is a disaster. don't ever do it. the result is mud, the opposite of micro precision and sweetness.


. recording engineers are familiar with this problem which is why they have master clocks with 5-10-20 outputs to slave their processors together.

konut

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Re: Analog-Tape-Can-Never-Be-HD
« Reply #19 on: 21 Feb 2012, 03:13 am »
I tried to explain this to people back in the early 90's. No-one was listening.
 

We were only listening with one ear.

What with all the tremendous amounts of micro level noise or hash and jitter its a wonder we all haven't gone mad! Wait.....