[kbuzz3]

I am a dedicated 2 channel tube guy with over thirty years experience fooling around with all types of equipment from high powered solid state to vintage tube gear.  After moving to a new home which has a few in walls already installed in both the family room and throughout the first floor, i decided to get some estimates on on doing a 5.1 system in small family room and also getting a multi-zone amp for background listing in the other rooms on the first floor.  I am now a bit confused, on some quality, performance and price recommendations on the audio side.  Any advice would be appreciated.

The 5.1 family room has a set of 5 definitive tech mid level in walls. As a basic test or “control” i temporarily hooked up a best buy low end pioneer 5.1 reciever and pioneer powered sub.  While the front three in walls are mounted too high on the front wall, i was surprised at the clarity and overall quality of this set up. In another words, it had decent musical involvement and no sibilance, which are my pet peeves. The sound does have a tendency to swirl up high around the room and does smack of that mid fi sound that i got into this hobby to avoid. its not something i would want to live with long term. 

So i contacted to two of the well known local install outfits to get some flat screens installed in various parts of the house, and requesting some quotes on the audio side of things.  The requests were pretty simple: an upper level 5.1 receiver, decent quality sub for the family room, and some type of source set up, either nas with itunes or some simple steaming player ( i have both flac and apple lossless libraries). Basically, its simple, whats it going to  cost to source and install something like an arcam, nad, rotel etc and maybe some new walls can "point" downward or similar?

The first installer wants to leave the elevated def tech inwalls and go mid range denon receiver and any generic sub.  This does not seem like much of an improvement over the self installed cheapo method above. They were also not receptive to any real discussion about sound quality, speaker height, or concern for room boominess/brightness. They were not too interested in any discussion of a source other then a blue ray player as transport.   Since installation in the metro new york area is something you always have to pay a premium for, asked another supposedly “higher end” installer for an alternative.

Installer B, suggest pulling the def techs, and installing some b&w 664-a bit more spread out to help the sound field, and a matching b & w sub. all powered by another low mid range reciever, an integra.  I was not too impressed by these suggestions as the b&ws at 250 a pop seem like at best a lateral move from the decent def techs. Research on the b&w sub, at about 1200 bucks also does not seem remotely promising. frankly it would be outclassed by a rhythmic, hsu or even sunfire.  not to even mention the more musical rels, or TBIs.
 
So now im really confused, Dealer A does not really deal in anything higher end and dealer B seems to offer more of the same; pushing the b & ws, all at an even higher install price.

I would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions on how to proceed.  The room here is on the smaller side and is not going to be my main listening source. On the other hand, i want to enjoy music and i know and dislike mid fi sound

[Phil A]

First of all, it is likely that any installer or dealer is married to certain brands.  If you walk into a store that is a dealer for a particular brand, they are likely not going to tell you to go to a brand carried by the competition.  For equipment, I'd look at places like accessories4less.com and get an authorized factory refurb with extended warranty.  You'll more or less be somewhere around dealer cost for the receiver.  I'd also look at CEDIA's site for member installers.

[kbuzz3]

Phil-thank for replying.  I also appreciate the suggestions.  Unfortunately, DIY is not an option for me as this project will require some replacement wiring and in addition to the 5.1 room, i need to integrate the other multi zones, something beyond my skills.

Yes you are right dealers are married to brands.  I guess maybe my long winded post was some kind of  frustration at not finding an "upper level" dealer who carries some products in between the denons of the world and linn-naim, which is really overkill in this application. What i guess is funny to me is if a client/customer makes specific requests like -upgrade the speakers, or power it with something a bit "better" then mass market stuff-- the installer would be more receptive.  Stated otherwise, maybe i guess i dont understand why someone would spend say large bucks on a project and run it with a 600 dollar receiver and 200 a unit dollar speakers???? Or maybe im just not the regular one size fits all type of "home theater customer."

I will check the cedia site as well and try and use your suggestion to find one who carries brands that may be more attractive.  I believe i found at least one of these from cedia....

[thunderbrick]

Why not do this?  Open up the front speakers, remove the speaker wires from the drivers, connect maybe 6-8' of in-wall speaker wire, drop it lower in the cavity to an old-work (or low-voltage) box and install speaker jacks?  Bingo!  "High, floating sound" problem solved.

Or you can move the in-wall speakers lower on the wall.  Any idiot (sorry, I live too far away) with a broad taping knife can fix you right up.

[mhconley]

For home theater I am a strong believer in THX certification - THX certified installers are trained to provide the best movie sound experience.  I'd look here: http://www.thx.com/professional/home-theater-installer/

Martin

[Mr Peabody]

You might also go to the manufacturer's website of the brands you like to see who the dealers are in your area.

What if you ignore the in-wall or use them for the "high surround" and buy some more traditional speakers?  Yamaha has always used the high front ambience speakers and I believe Marantz is beginning to, not sure who else.

It sounds like the root problem is finding a decent dealer who will actually listen to what you want.

[JP78]

I'd keep looking for more opinions, it doesn't sound like either dealer is giving you what you're asking for. I wouldn't worry about brand names and models, but rather  finding an integrator whom you can build a good relationship with. As you know from two-channel, proper placement and matching will result in much better sound quality than a poorly integrated high-quality piece of equipment. Best of luck. FWIW, I've found Sonance in-walls to be exceptional sound quality, and most integrators are willing to give a reasonable discount on them.

[mcoaggie]

I'm a big fan of Klispch CDT-5650 for HT.  I use them for rear surrounds.
They are pretty efficient so your standard receiver can drive them to high levels for movie dynamics.  The other trick is that you can angle the woofer and the tweeter orientation.
They aren't cheap though I think about $400.00 new each not including the in-wall mounting boxes (not necessary).

If I had extra cash I'd get five of them to use for my HT.  They are 8" drivers and go pretty low. 

Add a couple gr research servo subs to the mix.

For receiver perhaps a new Yamaha fairly high end receiver with 3d, android/iphone control, a billion inputs for music players I think you'd have  a nice not too expensive theatre setup.  With the processor and the adjustment of the drivers you should be able to dail in a pretty good 5.1 sound even for music.

Just my current thoughts. 

[JRace]

It's hard to comment on why the installers quoted you on what they did.
Did you give them a budget?
Did you give  limitations on changing current speaker locations?

First, no matter how expensive your upstream gear is your bottleneck is the speaker locations. No point throwing good money into amps and processors only to use very sub-optimal speaker locations. Unless your willing to alter that, and perhaps consider in room as opposed to in wall there is little benefit to using high priced gear.

Any chance you could post a pic of what your working with?

[drjjpdc]

Here's a recommendation.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/onkyo-tx-nr1009-92-channel-network-av-receiver

This Onkyo is about $1300 street, Get the smaller REL sub for about $500 and the Oppo 95 multi-player for about $900 and for around $2500 you are all set. The Onkyo has zones for around the house.

[kbuzz3]

thanks everyone for the suggestions.  An AC member who does some installations has contacted me with an offer to assist, so im looking forward to working with him.  Attached is a quick snapshot of the front wall. the room is small so no space  for stand alones.

 As can be seen from the pic, at minimum, the inwalls will need to be upgraded to a "box" model rather then the units that are just flush mounted in the sheetrock as is.  They should probably be lowered as well.

[kbuzz3]

[electricbear]

Go back to dealer B and tell him you want the 700 series of B&W in walls, integra receiver and JL Audio sub. I use the non inwall versions (CT7 series) with integra and JL sub and it delivers like nothing else at the respective pricepoints. If you go to B&Ws website you can read about how the speakers are the preferred choice for the Sundance film festival. They are the first speaker that I have come across in the affordable world that can deliver the theater type sound in the home.

[kbuzz3]

As an update to the thread, wouldnt it be sonically advantageous to lower the inwalls to border the tv, with the center just below?  I can repair the dry wall holes no problem. Something like this


        Left  [TV]   Right
              Center

[JRace]

As an update to the thread, wouldnt it be sonically advantageous to lower the inwalls to border the tv, with the center just below?  I can repair the dry wall holes no problem. Something like this


        Left  [TV]   Right
              Center

That alone would be a significant improvement.
The ideal front stage is all 3 tweeters at the same height, as close to your ear height when watching TV as possible.
Modify from there based on your TV and walls.

Another option is On Wall speakers rather than in wall. This provides improved imaging and frequency response yet retains the cleaner look compared with in room speakers.

[navin]

That alone would be a significant improvement.
The ideal front stage is all 3 tweeters at the same height, as close to your ear height when watching TV as possible.

For simple home theater setups (with a simple LED/LCD/Plasma TV) how does sone get the center speaker tweeter to be at ear height?  The center speaker would have to be either below or above the TV. The TV itself is at ear/eye height.

Q: for many of us who are transitioning from 2 channel audio to home theater most home theater amplifers are very bright and brash. Does anyone have a list of HT AVRs that are listenable?

I am told in the $2000 range NAD's 757 or 777, Arcam's AVR 400 and Pioneer's Elite SC 57 (LX-85) are the ones to consider. What about brands like Onkyo (TX 3009) or Yamaha (Aventage 3010)? A brand that disappointed was Rotel - Rotel's RSX-1550 was way too bright for my taste with B&W CM8s using a PS3 Blu-Ray as a source.

For smaller less expensive set ups what are the options?
Marantz 6006? NAD 748? Anthem's MRX 300? What about brands like Integra (40.3), Denon (2312/3312), Yamaha (Aventage 1010), or Onkyo (TX 809)?  Is Marantz's SR7005 a worthwhile upgrade from the 6006 and others in that class?

[SteveFord]

I was at The Listening Room down in Towsen, MD and they have a small room with Magnepan MMG-Ws up front, an MMG-C for the center, two PSB mini monitors for the rears and a small REL sub driven by a Cambridge Audio receiver and it sounded tremendous.  You could always substitute some MMG-Ws for the rears if there's no space for the PSB speakers.
Those little PSBs sounded pretty good, though.
That would not be too difficult to hook up and shouldn't cost a fortune.
Magnepan has a 30 day home trial so if it doesn't work out you're only out the cost of the shipping.

[Mr Peabody]

I don't typically think of Maggies as HT speakers but that's actually a pretty good option.  A friend used a model of Maggie that mounts on the wall, this could be an option over in-wall.  I know of a dealer who carries Artison (not sure spelled correctly) who makes a speaker that is thin and mounts on the wall, they use some type of unique driver where the voice coil is on the front of the speaker allowing good performance in a narrow space.  This is what he told me I have yet to hear them. 

[JRace]

For simple home theater setups (with a simple LED/LCD/Plasma TV) how does sone get the center speaker tweeter to be at ear height?  The center speaker would have to be either below or above the TV. The TV itself is at ear/eye height.

Q: for many of us who are transitioning from 2 channel audio to home theater most home theater amplifers are very bright and brash. Does anyone have a list of HT AVRs that are listenable?

I am told in the $2000 range NAD's 757 or 777, Arcam's AVR 400 and Pioneer's Elite SC 57 (LX-85) are the ones to consider. What about brands like Onkyo (TX 3009) or Yamaha (Aventage 3010)? A brand that disappointed was Rotel - Rotel's RSX-1550 was way too bright for my taste with B&W CM8s using a PS3 Blu-Ray as a source.

For smaller less expensive set ups what are the options?
Marantz 6006? NAD 748? Anthem's MRX 300? What about brands like Integra (40.3), Denon (2312/3312), Yamaha (Aventage 1010), or Onkyo (TX 809)?  Is Marantz's SR7005 a worthwhile upgrade from the 6006 and others in that class?

The ideal heightis not always possible due to having your tv right where the center should be. So either you place it above or below the tv, whatever will be closest to the main tweeter height. Knowing what the ideal is you can then alter based on your own restrictions.

I have always found marantz gear ( and higher up denon's) to be on the warmer side compared to rotel yammy and onkyo. I have not had a chance to compare the newest marantz 6 and 7 series so I am unable to comment, however it i would choose based on what speakers your driving.

[Mr Peabody]

It will depend on speakers however when I had an old school rear projector TV I had the center on top of it, when I switched to a flat panel on a stand the center went below the TV, I thought the center sounded much better below.  For what ever reason there was just better integration I suppose.

Last time I was in a store and did direct comparisons listening to HT receivers using music the Yamaha sounded better to me than both the Onkyo and Elite.  Onkyo would be able to handle more difficult speaker loads being high current but the Yamaha was clearly superior in overall sound quality, especially midrange.  We listened through a few different brands of speakers as well.