[gre]

I have an older system that i like very much.

I have VR-4 Gen 2's for my left and right front channels and an LCR-21 for my center channel.  Everything sounds great when my center channel is mounted on top of my Pioneer RPTV.  Naturally, the VR-4 Gen 2's sound best when they are a little over two feet from the front wall.  The LCR-21, on top of my RPTV is also placed a little over two feet from the same front wall between the two two VR-4 Gen 2's. 

I'd like to keep my VR-4 Gen 2 and my LCR-21.  However I would like to replace my old Pioneer RPTV. 

These days people tend to buy *thin* widescreens not thick RPTV's.  I'm trying to figure out how a thin widescreen might work with the LCR-21 center channel.  I don't want to mount the thin widescreen to the wall if at all possible.

I can't put the LCR-21 Center Channel on top of anything as thin as a widescreen like I now have it on top of my Pioneer RPTV.

Originally I was thinking of buying a stand, putting it about a few feet from the from wall, and then putting the thin widescreen television on the stand, by using the feet all widescreen televisions seem to have. But then, where would I put the LCR-21?  Could I put the LCR-21 on the stand, and could I put widescreen television on top of the LCR-21?  I'm guessing the LCR-21 probably vibrates too much for that to be a good thing.  Or if I get a stand with an enclosed cabinet, should I put the LCR-21 inside a cabinet?  But I don't think the LCR-21 was intended to be in an enclosed cabinet, since it currently sounds good outside of a closed cabinet.  It has a port in it's back, like the VR 4 Gen 2's, and as I mentioned, those port mounted speakers do sound better when they are two feet from the front wall.

BTW, I am thinking of getting a 70" to 80" widescreen.  One obvious solution is to mount the new widescreen on the front wall, and put a separate table with the LCR-21 on top of it, a few feet from the front wall.  However I'd rather not mount the new widescreen to the wall.

Anyway, I can't be the only person who has faced this dilemma.    Any suggestion?

Thanks in advance for the help!

[Tone Depth]

open-backed stand?

[gre]

Putting the LCR-21 center channel speaker in an open-backed stand sounds like a good idea, since it would allow two feet of open space to the front wall.  So that is a good thing!  But, assuming the widescreen is on top of the stand and the LCR-21 goes on a shelf in the stand, then that shelf would probably have a top to it, and probably have sides to it as well.  The LCR-21 isn't in a shelf with sides and a top right now.  Right now it's on top of my Pioneer RPTV. I imagine the LCR-21 wouldn't sound at all the same if it were put into a shelf that has a top and sides, even though the shelf has an open-back.  Would you agree?

Are there other types of stands that would do the job (open-backed and no sides or top and the widescreen would be on top)?  The LCR-21 is about 8 inches high and about 21 inches wide and it should go below the center of the large widescreen.

Failing that, are there other center channel speakers that would sound good with my left and right channel VR-4 Gen 2's, but, could be placed on a shelf inside a stand, where the shelf has sides and a top?

Thanks in advance for the help!

[gre]

So I called the Von Schweikert factory in Riverside California, and asked if they experienced problems with the sound of their center channel when placed on a shelf inside a television stand.  They said yes they had experienced problems with a center channel inside of one.  In particular, voices from the center channel could sound a little muffled.  The Von Schweikert factory first solved this problem by encasing a center channel in plexiglass inside the shelf.  A factory can do that.  But that would be a challenging task (for me).  Also while the result sounds good acoustically, one of the factory reps acknowledged the resulting setup is visually not that attractive.

The Von Schweikert factory found another solution that I think I like better.  They said they put the center channel on a shelf inside the television stand, where the shelf was open in the back and also on both sides.  What does such a shelf look like?  Well... according to them, it is supported at just its corners.  The shelf is open except at the corners. But the shelf does have a ceiling so that part is enclosed.  So, I asked how far the ceiling of the shelf is from the top of the center channel.  They said there wasn't too much clearance.  I got the impression the clearance was no more than a few inches.  Despite the closeness from the ceiling of the shelf to the top of the center channel, they said the sound was fine.  I asked how it would sound (good, or muffled) if there was a left and right side to the shelf but nothing in back.  I thought maybe if the sides were far enough away from the center channel speaker, it might be ok.  They answered that that it would depend on the layout.  They then volunteers how I could get an indication of if it would sound muffled or not.  To do this, they said I should stand in front of the shelf and talk loudly and listen to see if my voice sounded muffled.  Apparently if my voice sounded muffled the sound from the center channel speaker might as well.  Brilliant.  That was an "aha" moment.  So, I may go to a store and speak into the shelf and see if my voice sounds muffled.  Assuming this approach work, one obvious downside is I would have to physically see the television stand before buying one.  Of course I could still take a chance and order something online.

However, they cautioned me that all too often people buy television stands based on appearances and only later find out how their speakers sound.  Such wisdom. Another "aha" moment.

A last thing they said is the front of the center channel speaker should not be placed deep in the shelf, but rather, at the ledge of the shelf.  When they explained it that actually does make sense.... Hearing the center channel speaker deep inside a shelf might be analogous to hearing it in a cave.  My center channel has been a few inches from the ledge of my large RPTV but after my conversation with the Von Schweikert factory, I moved it practically the ledge of the RPTV, and lo and behold, it actually sounds better from my listening position.  The factory guys know of what they speak!

So I will start shopping for the recommended type of television stand (no back and no side or if it has a side one that I can 'speak' into to hear if my voice is muffled) with an eye towards placing my as-yet-unpurchased television stand under my as-yet-unpurchased 70"+ widescreen.

Thanks for the help!

[Malcolm02]

This is one of the great dilemmas of our age - how to set up a center channel speaker with a large flat screen TV. I have my TV on a wide low shelf and I'm toying with the idea of adding a center channel:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=95361.msg957838#msg957838

I have no choice but to put the center speaker on top of the shelf, but then the question is what to do with the TV. I need to raise it up by a few inches. I could either add the optional TV stand that attaches to the cabinet, or a separate TV stand that sits on the cabinet behind the speaker or on the floor behind the cabinet. The speaker would be free of anything around it and the only downside would be the wife acceptance factor of having it exposed like that.

If you have yet to choose a shelf, why don't you consider one like this?

Malcolm

[JackD201]

Personally, I'd wall mount the flat screen if I could. That leaves the top shelf of the rack wide open for the center channel.

[es347]

I've got a FP with a 110" screen and just below the screen I have the ML Cinema centered with a pair of Aerius i's right and left.  I wouldn't change a thing 

[gre]

This is one of the great dilemmas of our age - how to set up a center channel speaker with a large flat screen TV.

I know.

I have my TV on a wide low shelf and I'm toying with the idea of adding a center channel:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=95361.msg957838#msg957838

I have no choice but to put the center speaker on top of the shelf, but then the question is what to do with the TV. I need to raise it up by a few inches. I could either add the optional TV stand that attaches to the cabinet, or a separate TV stand that sits on the cabinet behind the speaker or on the floor behind the cabinet. The speaker would be free of anything around it

If you have yet to choose a shelf, why don't you consider one like this?

That might work well.  However one concern for me would be the widescreen has to be mounted high enough above the top of the stand to clear the center channel speaker height -- in my case the center channel is about 8 inches high, and even that assumes no interference between the speaker and the widescreen due to them being so close.  Another concern is the widescreen would be behind the stand.  Those aren't huge concerns but ideally I would want to avoid them.  Of course, if I already had your television stand, I would consider what you're suggesting if I wanted to keep the existing stand.

I am currently considering television stands along the lines of http://www.tvstands.com/Home-Loft-Concept-Dynasty-60-TV-Stand-in-Black-XML2120-WLK1019.html or http://www.tvstands.com/Tier-One-Designs-60-TV-Stand-with-Wire-Management-in-Clear-T1D-130-TDD1009.html where I would put the center channel in an inside shelf where the shelf is (mostly) open.  One negative of each of these particular stands are that neither is completely open in back, in the center of the back.

I would want to put my center channel speaker directly below the center of the stand ideally.  Also, ideally I may want a stand that is slightly bigger than 60 inches in length since most 70+ inch widescreens are over 60 inches in length.

[gre]

Personally, I'd wall mount the flat screen if I could. That leaves the top shelf of the rack wide open for the center channel.

I understand your suggestion.  My left and right front speakers, Von Schweikert VR 4 Gen 2's, seem to sound best when the rear of each speaker is a little over two feet from the front wall.  They are about 1 1/2 feet deep, and consequently the fronts of my left and right speakers are about four feet from the front wall.  I don't think I would want a widescreen to be four feet behind the front of the left and right speaker, in my set up.  The widescreen can be closer to the front wall than the speakers, but by only about a foot or so.  I wouldn't want the widescreen to be four feet behind the speakers.

Others may like having their widescreen much closer to the wall than their front speakers.  It's a personal taste

[JackD201]

That would be odd wouldn't it. It'd have to be a really big screen so as not to be dwarfed by such a big system. 

[Malcolm02]

I am currently considering television stands along the lines of http://www.tvstands.com/Home-Loft-Concept-Dynasty-60-TV-Stand-in-Black-XML2120-WLK1019.html or http://www.tvstands.com/Tier-One-Designs-60-TV-Stand-with-Wire-Management-in-Clear-T1D-130-TDD1009.html where I would put the center channel in an inside shelf where the shelf is (mostly) open.  One negative of each of these particular stands are that neither is completely open in back, in the center of the back.

My concern with those stands is that the shelf for the speaker isn't big enough, or if it is then it's not sturdy enough to hold it. Most people have center channel speakers that are wimpy compared to yours. If it is big and sturdy enough then I don't see a reason why it wouldn't work.

[gre]

I agree.  However stands with shelves able to handle the bigger beefier amplifiers or receivers should be able to handle my center channel speaker.  Unfortunately, many shelves that can handle my center channel speaker are not (completely) open in back.

Ideally, I'd like a television stand that's at least 60 inches in length, with a shelf that is open in back that is able to handle the size and weight of my Von Schweikert center channel speaker, where my speaker is horizontally centered within the television stand (not off to the right or the left of the center of the television stand).

[Malcolm02]

I agree.  However stands with shelves able to handle the bigger beefier amplifiers or receivers should be able to handle my center channel speaker.  Unfortunately, many shelves that can handle my center channel speaker are not (completely) open in back.

Ideally, I'd like a television stand that's at least 60 inches in length, with a shelf that is open in back that is able to handle the size and weight of my Von Schweikert center channel speaker, where my speaker is horizontally centered within the television stand (not off to the right or the left of the center of the television stand).

Well, you might want to check out the center channel versions of the Salamander cabinet that I have:
http://www.salamanderdesigns.com/syn/synergy.jsp?modelbase=slc20
http://www.salamanderdesigns.com/syn/synergy.jsp?modelbase=slc30
http://www.amazon.com/Salamander-Designs-SB339C-Synergy-Cabinet/dp/B004UR4FFU/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1329930120&sr=8-9

You can leave off the back. You can even just get the frame and not bother with the doors and sides. You would need to make sure that the center channel opening is big enough for the height of your speaker (if the speaker is a tiny bit too high then you're stuffed - that's the problem with this kind of design), and that it places the TV at an acceptable height. They are a bit pricier than your examples, but they would definitely be sturdy enough.

[gre]

This is an interesting possibility.  Thanks for the links. I saw that the back panels can be raised or lowered.  But is the furniture frame rigid and sturdy enough to hold a relatively heavy speaker in the top shelf as well as a large widescreen on top of it, with the back panels removed?

Although not a requirement, it would be nice if the bottom shelf on whatever I got had a back to it, and the top shelf were open.  This would hide any wiring clutter that's on the floor behind the television stand.

[Malcolm02]

This is an interesting possibility.  Thanks for the links. I saw that the back panels can be raised or lowered.  But is the furniture frame rigid and sturdy enough to hold a relatively heavy speaker in the top shelf as well as a large widescreen on top of it, with the back panels removed?

Although not a requirement, it would be nice if the bottom shelf on whatever I got had a back to it, and the top shelf were open.  This would hide any wiring clutter that's on the floor behind the television stand.

With Salamander, the frame and shelves are very sturdy. That's what you pay the bucks for. The side and back panels are thin and don't provide any support to the frame. I left the back panels off. If you want it partially covered I suppose you could cut the back panels to size if you're adept at that kind of thing.

[pre]

Here is another alternative approach:
http://www.blu-ray.com/community/gallery.php?member=Woody

http://www.soundanchors.com/page60.html
or sfc22  or 18
http://www.sanus.com/us/en/products/speaker-foundations/sp-steel

I have old vr4 gen II (driver/unit upgrade pending...)  and  ( earlier with lcr-31)  now with lcr-35  center.   Iḿ facing the same problem when upgraded from  tube tv to 65" sony hx929.    Earlier all gadgets fitted to one rack and TV on top and Center speaker on top of TV.

Situation is challenging because the floor reflections also need to be avoided and center should not be positioned too low either, but  the center speaker  still being located below the 65" TV.

[gre]

With Salamander, the frame and shelves are very sturdy. That's what you pay the bucks for. The side and back panels are thin and don't provide any support to the frame. I left the back panels off. If you want it partially covered I suppose you could cut the back panels to size if you're adept at that kind of thing.

Using just the frame of the Salamander cabinet stand sounds like it could work, especially since you actually removed the back panels on yours and found the panel-less frame to be sturdy enough.  Bravo!  However I have some price point concerns with it.  It's not inexpensive.  Also per your suggestion, ideally I would want to cut the back panels to provide a backing for the bottom shelf while leaving the top shelf exposed (with no backing).  I would not be confident in being able to cut the panels well enough myself... especially on such expensive furniture.  So, while the solution is not ideal for me, it is something I will consider, as I try to see if there are other solutions even better for me.  Thanks again!

If you do decide to put a center speaker in your Salamander Cabinet, I would be interested in learning how it works out and sounds.

[gre]

Here is another alternative approach:
http://www.blu-ray.com/community/gallery.php?member=Woody
http://www.soundanchors.com/page60.html
or sfc22  or 18 http://www.sanus.com/us/en/products/speaker-foundations/sp-steel

I have old vr4 gen II (driver/unit upgrade pending...)  and  ( earlier with lcr-31)  now with lcr-35  center.   Iḿ facing the same problem when upgraded from  tube tv to 65" sony hx929.    Earlier all gadgets fitted to one rack and TV on top and Center speaker on top of TV.

Those links seem to show a wall mounted widescreen and a separate center channel speaker positioned below and well in front of the widescreen.  But where would you put your VR4 Gen 2's?

I'm glad to speak to another legacy VR4 Gen 2 owner.  My VR 4 Gen 2's sound best when the listening grill of the speakers are about four feet from the front wall.  With mine the difference in sound quality is night and day better when they are that far from the wall, compared to being positioned much closer to the front wall.  So, for me, personally, I wouldn't want to put a widescreen right on the front wall, since that would put it some four feet behind the main left and right speakers.  Because of that, I'd want the widescreen out in the room also.  Also, I would imagine the center channel speaker should also be roughly that far out from the front wall too, so, roughly as far out as the widescreen which itself is as far out as the main left and right speakers.  I don't think I'd want the center channel speaker to be too far in front of the widescreen since the widescreen is already so far the front wall.  That's just my personal preference.  Others have different preferences of course

I do agree with you that the:

situation is challenging because the floor reflections also need to be avoided and center should not be positioned too low

although it must be positioned below the widescreen TV.

[gre]

One concern with putting the center channel below the thin widescreen is it is placed low.  It may have to be placed so low that the sound it produces may bounce off the floor, and/or be blocked by anything low in the room that gets in its way.

One possible solution might be a bracket on top of the widescreen.  Here's one:  http://www.centerstagebracket.com/3006.html

A Von Schweikert center channel isn't exactly lightweight.  I wonder if the bracket is sturdy enough for the weight.  Similarly I wonder if a widescreen and the stand that is built in under the widescreen can handle the extra weight. 

The writeup for this bracket says it can hold a 30 pound speaker and my center channel is more than that, but fortunately not by a huge amount. The bracket costs just $100 so the price is nice, although that's in addition to getting furniture under the widescreen.  However furniture under the widescreen would probably be easier to find if it need not house a Von Schweikert center channel.

[Malcolm02]

One concern with putting the center channel below the thin widescreen is it is placed low.  It may have to be placed so low that the sound it produces may bounce off the floor, and/or be blocked by anything low in the room that gets in its way.

One possible solution might be a bracket on top of the widescreen.  Here's one:  http://www.centerstagebracket.com/3006.html

So that bracket attaches to the TV? I'm not sure I would want to do that. Some people have reported success with having the center channel below the screen angled upwards, to reduce floor reflections and make it sound like it's coming more from the screen, but I haven't tried this myself.