[brother love]

I've been reading about this stuff until my eyeballs are bleeding & my brain is about to explode. So fellow AC members, help a brother out...

Here is what I got to work with, all located in the same 17’ x 11’ listening room:

iMac- 3.06 GHz Intel, 4 gb memory, 500 gb Hitachi HD w/ 470 gb available, Snow Leopard; located 15 ft. from audio/ video system.

A/V system: GR Research N3 speakers, Oppo BDP-83SE blu-ray & Virtue Audio Sensation tube buffer/ amp, Pioneer 720p 42” plasma; 350 redbook CD’s.

iPad2 w/ remote app installed for iTunes access; iPod (few yrs. old, smaller memory cap.)

Airport Express 802.11n (currently plugged in behind iMac)

Next purchase:  DAC- Schitt Audio USB 24/192 or Grant Fidelity Tube DAC11 USB 24/96

Possible purchases: Apple TV (currently use an OTA antenna for HD & Netflix DVD rental services), Pure Music; further down the road ... upgrade iMac to SSD w/ external HD or maybe Mac Mini dedicated music server


My thoughts were to run a 5m Audioquest or Pangea USB 2.0 cable from iMac to new DAC mounted in A/V area. I could relocate the AE close to A/V system & run a 5m ethernet cable instead, but I seem to recall AE is limited to 16/ 44 ?

I also want to utilize the new set-up to access Spotify/ MOG & listen thru my A/V system.

So am I going in the right direction, or is there a better or more efficient way to build this mouse trap ?

[WC]

Could be. 

For MOG  and Spotify listening the AE will be fine. Just bring up what you want to listen to on the iPad and send it to the AE via AirPlay. Using the iPad and remote you can send music in your iTunes library to the AE, it won't do high res music but it may allow you to see if you like streaming to a box or would prefer to have a computer tethered to the AV system. You could try the USB cable but 15 ft is pushing the limits/lengths of what it can reliably function.

[Crimson]

Could be. 

For MOG  and Spotify listening the AE will be fine. Just bring up what you want to listen to on the iPad and send it to the AE via AirPlay. Using the iPad and remote you can send music in your iTunes library to the AE, it won't do high res music but it may allow you to see if you like streaming to a box or would prefer to have a computer tethered to the AV system. You could try the USB cable but 15 ft is pushing the limits/lengths of what it can reliably function.

+1

I'd try to reduce the distance between computer and gear and go wired once you get situated. That is, for hi-rez and deep listening. The AEx or ATV via wireless is fine fine for lesser resolutions.

[mathgeek97]

Airport Express 802.11n (currently plugged in behind iMac)

Next purchase:  DAC- Schitt Audio USB 24/192 or Grant Fidelity Tube DAC11 USB 24/96

Before you buy a DAC, ask users of those DACs if they've had success playing music from the optical out of the AE.  The AE has a healthy jitter to the output, and some DACs don't like it.
I have basically the same setup for everyday listening and get very nice, musical noises coming from my system.  I know perfectly well that using a Mac Mini with a USB connection to the DAC would sound better and do high resolution files, but the simplicity and convenience of iTunes -> AE(outical out) -> DAC is hard to beat.  And if your friends show up with music on an iPod/iPhone/iPad, you can play straight from their handheld device to the AE (caveat: not for critical listening!).

[DS-21]

+1

I'd try to reduce the distance between computer and gear and go wired once you get situated. That is, for hi-rez and deep listening. The AEx or ATV via wireless is fine fine for lesser resolutions.

That's nonsense. With levels matched, nobody will hear a difference between either approach. I've tried it blind a few times, even with hi-rez stuff like the Beatles Apple USB stick, over an asynch. USB DAC (Benchmark) vs. a MacBook's optical digital output vs. an Airport Express over optical vs a black AppleTV over HDMI. No difference, let alone relative improvement, from the "audiophile approved" approach vs. the "most convenient" approach. So I stream everything in my main system through an AppleTV, an everything in the secondary system over an APE. (Though one thing I will say is that the APE is not the most reliable of devices. They get quite hot, and that seems deleterious to circuit lifespan. Since 2005 or so I've gone through 4 of them.)

Differences just aren't there. But cons and scams do abound for the gullible. After all, sonics aren't the issue when one's talking about the brand of USB wires one wants to use.

[DS-21]

So am I going in the right direction, or is there a better or more efficient way to build this mouse trap ?

If you want to actually improve the sound quality of your system, upgrade your speakers, or at least add multiple subwoofers underneath them to smooth out the influence of room modes in the 50-150Hz region. Add the ATV2 if it will make things more convenient for you, or when the APE craps out.

The rest of the stuff you're talking about is frankly just buying stuff to no benefit whatsoever. Especially the scam USB wires.

[chrisby]

Before you buy a DAC, ask users of those DACs if they've had success playing music from the optical out of the AE.  The AE has a healthy jitter to the output, and some DACs don't like it.
I have basically the same setup for everyday listening and get very nice, musical noises coming from my system.  I know perfectly well that using a Mac Mini with a USB connection to the DAC would sound better and do high resolution files, but the simplicity and convenience of iTunes -> AE(outical out) -> DAC is hard to beat.  And if your friends show up with music on an iPod/iPhone/iPad, you can play straight from their handheld device to the AE (caveat: not for critical listening!).

I'm using APE/ Toslink to Citypluse DAC, and the only real issues is drop outs when the kitchen microwave is running. I keep on telling myself to test a  tethered connection from the MBP when this happens, but never get around to it. 

Yes, a direct Toslink out from either a Mini or the MB sounds significantly better, but the utter convenience of wireless, or even pushing from an iPhone is pretty hard to beat.  It's great fun when my son drops by with his own MB and Phone - dueling remotes, or streaming separate content to the AE and ATV - are we spoiled by this technology or what?

 

[Crimson]

That's nonsense. With levels matched, nobody will hear a difference between either approach. I've tried it blind a few times, even with hi-rez stuff like the Beatles Apple USB stick, over an asynch. USB DAC (Benchmark) vs. a MacBook's optical digital output vs. an Airport Express over optical vs a black AppleTV over HDMI. No difference, let alone relative improvement, from the "audiophile approved" approach vs. the "most convenient" approach. So I stream everything in my main system through an AppleTV, an everything in the secondary system over an APE. (Though one thing I will say is that the APE is not the most reliable of devices. They get quite hot, and that seems deleterious to circuit lifespan. Since 2005 or so I've gone through 4 of them.)

Differences just aren't there. But cons and scams do abound for the gullible. After all, sonics aren't the issue when one's talking about the brand of USB wires one wants to use.

Nonsense, indeed. I said a wired connection, not necessarily USB. I use USB, FireWire, and toslink, and I do hear a difference going wired vs wireless via an ATV or AEx. Maybe your system doesn't resolve those differences. Did you know neither the ATV or AEx do hi-res natively?

PS: I don't use any exotic cabling between computer and dacs.

[Crimson]

 .

[DS-21]

Nonsense, indeed. I said a wired connection, not necessarily USB. I use USB, FireWire, and toslink, and I do hear a difference going wired vs wireless via an ATV or AEx.

And you've compared them blind, with levels scrupulously matched exactly how many times exactly?

Maybe your system doesn't resolve those differences.

Ah, the old snob/"golden ears" defense.

At any rate, that's highly doubtful, because I use efficient (96dB/W/m) loudspeakers with controlled directivity, smooth response, and large cone area; place them properly; and I use a Geddes-style multisub system underneath them to smooth out response in the modal region that uses outstanding woofers with underhung motors and clean response to three octaves past where I use them. I also employ enough power that nothing in my system is ever going to be close to nonlinear at any feasible domestic listening level.

I've also listened on an excellent headphone setup from my main preamp (HeadRoom Portable Micro, driving at various times Sennheiser HD-580 headphones, Etymotic ER-4 IEMs, Denon AH-D2000 headphones, and ADDIEMs). Headphones, and especially IEM's, are generally more resolving of differences between digital audio codecs than even the best loudspeakers in the best rooms.

What result? All of the methods I discussed above sound exactly that same.

Did you know neither the ATV or AEx do hi-res natively?

Yes.

But who cares? The proof is in the sound.

If the downsampling isn't audible - and I've listened blind with levels matched, with both loudspeakers and headphones, so I know it's not at least with any program material I have. Please let us all know a track that you think demonstrates a difference between a raw hi-rez feed and one downsampled by an aTV2. It is theoretically possible one does exist. But the vast majority will not.

As for hi-rez generally, it's a crock. There are no audible differences between a hi-rez and Red Book version of the same master. When an SACD, DVD-A, or digital hi-rez download sounds different, that is because either it is multichannel or if it is stereo it was mastered differently. See Meyer and Moran, "Audibility of a CD-Standard A/DA/A Loop Inserted into High-Resolution Audio Playback," 55 J. Audio Eng. Soc. 9 (2007), at 775.

[Crimson]

With levels matched, nobody will hear a difference between either approach. I've tried it blind a few times, even with hi-rez stuff like the Beatles Apple USB stick, over an asynch. USB DAC (Benchmark) vs. a MacBook's optical digital output vs. an Airport Express over optical vs a black AppleTV over HDMI. No difference

Gotcha.

Hi-res vs redbook doesn't matter.
Wired vs wireless doesn't matter.
Dacs don't matter.
Cables don't matter.
A few 'blind' tests prove this.

It's all clear now.

Let's all go back to AM transistor radios. 

Carry on. This should be amusing.

[chrisby]

Gotcha.

Hi-res vs redbook doesn't matter.
Wired vs wireless doesn't matter.
Dacs don't matter.
Cables don't matter.
A few 'blind' tests prove this.

It's all clear now.

Let's all go back to AM transistor radios. 

Carry on. This should be amusing.

hmm,  I wonder who's bladder or kidneys will fail first?

[brother love]

Thanks everyone for your input.

DS21,

Thank you for your recommendations, but please don't hijack this thread. 

I am happy w/ my transmission line speakers (clean bass to 40 hz). I had a Rythmik Audio 12" servo sub, but decided I didn't need it that much. I also have 5 early reflection/ SBIR  acoustic sound panels & 2 bass traps. I've run frequency sweeps on my room & tweaked it quite a bit.  I love my 2 channel rig.

5 m USB cables I referenced are $68 incl. shpg, not a huge difference from garden variety versions.

I'm looking for best connections/ performance utilizing a DAC & existing equipment listed prior.

Thanks.

[DS-21]

Hi-res vs redbook doesn't matter.
Wired vs wireless doesn't matter.
Dacs don't matter.
Cables don't matter.
It's all clear now.

To any sensible person who has read the relevant literature and has the reading comprehension skills to understand it (frankly, a very small subset of people, sadly) all of those things are obvious.

On the other side, there is universal consensus that:

Speakers, both their design and their placement, matter. For speakers, especially important are the polar pattern through the midrange (most speakers are low-fi junk, frankly, because they release massive mushroom clouds of energy into the room at the bottom of the tweeter's passband) and the number/location of pressure sources ("subs") in the modal region (2 channel "full-range" speakers only means 15+ dB swings in response in the modal region, or low-fidelity reproduction). Also, it should go without saying that they should be able to cleanly reproduce the peaks a given listener's source material contains, without excessive dynamic compression.

The room matters. With crappy speakers (i.e. most speakers) fanatical and measurement-driven devotion to room treatments can at least make a cotton purse out of a sow's ear. With good speakers, people often err on the side of over-treatment, especially of early reflections, leading to a sound that's more closed-in than spacious and expansive.

Other transducers in a system, such as TT cartridges, matter.

Electronics matter only if they're inadequate to the task (for example, trying to get Shostakovich 10 at 7th-row-center-in-the-Musikverein levels out of SET amps driving 86dB/W/m speakers), or broken.

[DS-21]

5 m USB cables I referenced are $68 incl. shpg, not a huge difference from garden variety versions.

Hmm. Took me seconds to find a 5m USB wire for under $5, which strikes me as rather a "huge difference" compared to 68USD.

http://www.amazon.com/Cables-Go-13401-Male-Cable/dp/B0000511WZ

Now, if you want to put $60+ into the hands of con-men, that is your choice. But if you buy it, don't even try to do a blind test between the two wires. The results will only depress you.

[chrisby]

Hmm. Took me seconds to find a 5m USB wire for under $5, which strikes me as rather a "huge difference" compared to 68USD.

http://www.amazon.com/Cables-Go-13401-Male-Cable/dp/B0000511WZ

Now, if you want to put $60+ into the hands of con-men, that is your choice. But if you buy it, don't even try to do a blind test between the two wires. The results will only depress you.

well sometimes reading these threads can be depressing too - even without any money changing hands

[JohnR]

Yes indeed. Weep all ye who weren't smart enough to buy underhung motors.

[brother love]

update:  I ordered the Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-11 (also has preamp/ volume control option) & a boat load of cheap cables from Amazon to experiment with ...

5m USB cable to go between iMac & DAC
20 ft. Cat 5E cable (if I relocate AEx from computer area to A/V area)
5 ft. & 25 ft. miniplug to 2 RCA (to connect AEx to DAC or integrated amp w/ only RCA inputs)

Next week I hope to get a little more "enlightened" to digital audio/ streaming w/ the iMac, iPad2 w/ remote app, new DAC, AEx, Spotify & my 2 channel rig !

[DS-21]

I can't help but notice that nobody who thinks all this electronic frippery is so important bothered to answer the following question:

Please let us all know a track that you think demonstrates a difference between a raw hi-rez feed and one downsampled by an aTV2.

For some, I suppose, it's about collecting audio parts. As many as possible, and as expensive as possible.

For others of us, it's actually about the music.

[Crimson]

update:  I ordered the Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-11 (also has preamp/ volume control option) & a boat load of cheap cables from Amazon to experiment with ...

5m USB cable to go between iMac & DAC
20 ft. Cat 5E cable (if I relocate AEx from computer area to A/V area)
5 ft. & 25 ft. miniplug to 2 RCA (to connect AEx to DAC or integrated amp w/ only RCA inputs)

Next week I hope to get a little more "enlightened" to digital audio/ streaming w/ the iMac, iPad2 w/ remote app, new DAC, AEx, Spotify & my 2 channel rig !

Have fun! Let us know how it goes.