What does hi-res mean, technically?

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Netdewt

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What does hi-res mean, technically?
« on: 17 Jan 2012, 01:19 am »
The limits of human hearing is 20kHz, right? And a 24/192 recording goes up 9 times above that, right? What benefit is that adding? Don't DACs filter out high frequencies anyways? I have not had the opportunity to compare hi-res to redbook, but I am confused by the principle of hi-res audio. Any explanations?

evsentry3

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Re: What does hi-res mean, technically?
« Reply #1 on: 17 Jan 2012, 01:33 am »
Why limit your wondering to what is above 20khz? 

Wouldn't a lot, whole lot more information being preserved below 20khz be important too?

EV3

Phil A

Re: What does hi-res mean, technically?
« Reply #2 on: 17 Jan 2012, 01:53 am »
A digital sample is a slice vs. the whole thing.  Ever compare even a good MP3 with a CD?  The more information that is captured leaves the potential to hear more when played back.

Netdewt

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Re: What does hi-res mean, technically?
« Reply #3 on: 17 Jan 2012, 02:18 am »
Right, but mp3 is a quality/compression issue, where 16/44 vs 24/192 is a range issue, yes?

If we can't hear above 20kHz, then why does it matter? Technically. I'm not asking rhetorically. Does 24/192 capture more detail within the audible range?

ted_b

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Re: What does hi-res mean, technically?
« Reply #4 on: 17 Jan 2012, 02:20 am »
The limits of human hearing is 20kHz, right? And a 24/192 recording goes up 9 times above that, right? What benefit is that adding? Don't DACs filter out high frequencies anyways? I have not had the opportunity to compare hi-res to redbook, but I am confused by the principle of hi-res audio. Any explanations?

Hirez in my Circle means anything above redbook (16/44.1k).  And NO, 24/192k is not simply 9x over human hearing.  First off, 192k only captures up to 96k in frequency response (half the sample rate)...and more correctly deals with the number of samples per second, not the highest level of frequency!!  A 24/192k bass solo from Christian McBride certainly doesn't go to 96k, but contains a lot more samples on the lower frequencies as well, thereby helping to draw the analog curve even more accurately.  Furthermore, higher sample rates and deeper bit depths allow for more "live event" dynamic range...and on a technical level, allow for spurious noise to be forced and filtered further up into inaudibility.

Netdewt

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Re: What does hi-res mean, technically?
« Reply #5 on: 17 Jan 2012, 02:33 am »
That makes sense. I read an article that said 44.1kHz was chosen originally because 20kHz is the limit of human hearing, double it and you avoid aliasing, or something like that. Something about the Nyquist rate too...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist_rate

Quote
The Nyquist rate is the minimum sampling rate required to avoid aliasing, equal to twice the highest frequency contained within the signal.

wisnon

Re: What does hi-res mean, technically?
« Reply #6 on: 17 Jan 2012, 09:40 am »
Netdewt,

I am currently arranging to test the difference between various hirez material which I also have in RBCD format and will post my own impressions here. I start out as a skeptic too, as I have several songs in RBCD format that will be hard to surpass.

Given that I only moved to computer audio recently, and I have a modded squeezbox duet and a disc transport to compare with my McBook Air setup, I should be able to have a solid basis for comparison between formats. The common "gate" for me will be my Lampizator L4 DAC, that can handle 24/192.

TedB already has all the material and equipment at his disposal and he is firmly in the Hirez sounds better (if well mastered) camp. He also says that DSD beats them all when played thru a quality DSD capable DAC.
« Last Edit: 17 Jan 2012, 03:19 pm by wisnon »

JohnR

Re: What does hi-res mean, technically?
« Reply #7 on: 17 Jan 2012, 09:41 am »
Technically, sample rate has no effect on dynamic range.

wisnon

Re: What does hi-res mean, technically?
« Reply #8 on: 17 Jan 2012, 09:51 am »
That makes sense. I read an article that said 44.1kHz was chosen originally because 20kHz is the limit of human hearing, double it and you avoid aliasing, or something like that. Something about the Nyquist rate too...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist_rate

I think you answered your own question. 40KHz is the MINIMUM sampling rate to avoid anti-aliasing and above that you then get more samples across the entire audible range, so as to better approximate the analog curve. Thus, hirez wouuld accomplish BOTh objectives,

JohnR

Re: What does hi-res mean, technically?
« Reply #9 on: 17 Jan 2012, 09:54 am »
I think you answered your own question. 40KHz is the MINIMUM sampling rate to avoid anti-aliasing and above that you then get more samples across the entire audible range, so as to better approximate the analog curve. Thus, hirez wouuld accomplish BOTh objectives,

Except that you cannot avoid anti-aliasing by choosing a sample rate. You also have to have filtering, which has both an amplitude and a phase response.

wisnon

Re: What does hi-res mean, technically?
« Reply #10 on: 17 Jan 2012, 09:57 am »
I meant in addition to the filtering,etc, according to the wiki article posted...

ted_b

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Re: What does hi-res mean, technically?
« Reply #11 on: 17 Jan 2012, 03:02 pm »
Technically, sample rate has no effect on dynamic range.

Right, I said bit depth, which is part of the "hirez" component.

Netdewt

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Re: What does hi-res mean, technically?
« Reply #12 on: 17 Jan 2012, 03:21 pm »
http://www.tweakheadz.com/16_vs_24_bit_audio.htm

This guy explains 24-bit as an expansion of dynamic range. So quiet sounds and very loud sounds are recorded more accurately. So, since I am a photographer and think in those terms, maybe it's like having a 7 stop range in an exposure, rather than a 5 stop range? Less information is clipped or compressed.

Quote
Audiophiles have claimed since the beginning of digital audio that vinyl records on an analog system sound better than digital audio.  Indeed, you can find evidence that analog recording and playback equipment can be measured up to 50khz, over twice our threshold of hearing.  Here's the great mystery. The theory is that audio energy, even though we don't hear it, exists as has an effect on the lower frequencies we do hear.  Back to the Nyquist theory, a 96khz sample rate will translate into potential audio output at 48khz, not too far from the finest analog sound reproduction.  This leads one to surmise that the same principle is at work.  The audio is improved in a threshold we cannot perceive and it makes what we can hear "better".

He also throws this out there about high sample rates. This makes a lot of sense to me.



nnck

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Re: What does hi-res mean, technically?
« Reply #13 on: 18 Jan 2012, 03:30 am »
The limits of human hearing is 20kHz, right? And a 24/192 recording goes up 9 times above that, right? What benefit is that adding? Don't DACs filter out high frequencies anyways? I have not had the opportunity to compare hi-res to redbook, but I am confused by the principle of hi-res audio. Any explanations?

I'm thinking that you might be missing the point somewhat here. The use of 'frequency' in terms of the sampling rate for hi-res digital is not exactly the same as the use of the term when we speak of our 'range of human hearing'. I'm no digital expert, but I believe the use of the term 'frequency' here has to do with the number of data points that are used to recreate a sound in each sampling 'event' or 'slice' as others have put it (are you taking data samples every 1/44,100th of a second or every 1/96,000th of a second, etc). Increasing the sampling frequency as it applies here means that you are using more data points to recreate the entire sound (within the whole range of human hearing). It is not just adding more data points that are above our normal range of hearing.

It's sort of analogous to the refresh rate on a television screen. Higher sampling frequencies here usually mean a more seamless moving image.

The theory is that using a higher sampling frequency (more data points) helps re-create a more realistic sound. If you think about it, the sampling frequencies of sounds of an analog origin are actually infinite. Digital sound attempts to recreate that with a certain number of data points and complex algorithms.

Of course, there is still a debate concerning the limits of human capability to perceive these differences in increasing sampling rates.

Netdewt

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Re: What does hi-res mean, technically?
« Reply #14 on: 18 Jan 2012, 04:50 am »
Increasing the sampling frequency as it applies here means that you are using more data points to recreate the entire sound (within the whole range of human hearing). It is not just adding more data points that are above our normal range of hearing.

Right, but these two things correlate. If a sound's frequency is, say, 5,000 Hz only and nothing else is present, the sampling rate needed to capture it is 10,000 Hz. You're not going to get any more information out of that one sound by sampling at 100,000 Hz because there isn't anything there.

I'm trying to wrap my head around this idea that sound is not a "scale". The higher sounds are not "higher up", they just have a faster frequency, and they tuck between waves with lower frequency. Why does it help to capture the tiny waves in between the fastest ones we can hear? If cameras could capture infrared and gamma radiation, would pictures look better?

For now I'm sticking with the idea that high frequency "audio energy, even though we don't hear it, exists as has an effect on the lower frequencies we do hear."

nnck

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Re: What does hi-res mean, technically?
« Reply #15 on: 18 Jan 2012, 05:45 am »
Right, but these two things correlate. If a sound's frequency is, say, 5,000 Hz only and nothing else is present, the sampling rate needed to capture it is 10,000 Hz. You're not going to get any more information out of that one sound by sampling at 100,000 Hz because there isn't anything there.

Again, I'm not sure I follow what you are saying. You give an example of a sound at 5000Hz, as in the frequency of the sound. The other 2 numbers are sampling rates. You can say the 10,000Hz sampling rate means you are recreating that 5000Hz sound using data points taken every 1/10,000th of a second. You can say the 100,000Hz sampling rate means you are recreating that same 5000Hz sound by using data points that are taken every 1/100,000 of a second (10 times more data points).

Will there be an audible difference in the sound? I dont know. But remember, an analog sound with a frequency of 5000Hz still has a sampling rate with a frequency that is theoretically infinite (i.e. it is a continuous wave function that is not chopped into bits of data).

Netdewt

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Re: What does hi-res mean, technically?
« Reply #16 on: 20 Jan 2012, 03:06 pm »
Again, I'm not sure I follow what you are saying. You give an example of a sound at 5000Hz, as in the frequency of the sound. The other 2 numbers are sampling rates. You can say the 10,000Hz sampling rate means you are recreating that 5000Hz sound using data points taken every 1/10,000th of a second.

Yes, I am referring to the Nyquist rate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist_rate

Quote
The Nyquist rate is the minimum sampling rate required to avoid aliasing, equal to twice the highest frequency contained within the signal.

Will there be an audible difference in the sound? I dont know. But remember, an analog sound with a frequency of 5000Hz still has a sampling rate with a frequency that is theoretically infinite (i.e. it is a continuous wave function that is not chopped into bits of data).

Good point. Something I have been wondering is, does hi-res playback matter as much as hi-res recording? Will a hi-res recording sound better in 16/44 playback than a 16/44 recording?

whell

Re: What does hi-res mean, technically?
« Reply #17 on: 20 Jan 2012, 04:35 pm »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_bit_depth

As long as we're giving Wikipedia's serves a work out by posting links in this thread, here's a link that contrasts the application of different bit rates (16, 24, 32) and sample rates (44.1, 88.2, 96, etc.) in digital audio in a way that I can understand.

I'm not sure about anyone else, but it helps me to think of digital audio resolution much the same way as I think of the resolution of a digital photo.  If I'm taking a picture of someone's face, I know that I can get more detail into the picture by zooming in.  If I'm zooming out, their face only takes up maybe 50% of the image in the photo and I get less facial details (16 bits).  If I zoom in, their face may then occupy 80% of the digital image, and I'll get more detail (24 bits). 

If I want to print that digital image on my printer, I know I can get a better print if I increase the dots per inch (DPI) setting on the printer.  If I use a setting of 300 dpi (44.1khz) the picture may look OK from a distance but if I look closely I'll note some missing or blurred information in the picture.  The image won't look as sharp.  However, if I increase the dpi setting on the printer to 600 (96 khz and up), the image will look much sharper on the paper, and the details will be rendered much more accurately. 

This may not be a perfect analogy, but it works for me.  You can also extend the analogy further to demonstrate that you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.  In digital photography, if you start out with a photo that was taken with poor lighting or the photographer moved while pressing the shutter, you're going to get a crappy picture whether you print it in 300 or 600 dpi.  You might as well print it in 300 dpi since printing at 600 dpi will magnify the flaws in the original photo.  If you have a less than optimal source recording, you might as well leave it in MP3 or CD format, since it may sound worse if you try to upsample the recording.

ted_b

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Re: What does hi-res mean, technically?
« Reply #18 on: 20 Jan 2012, 04:45 pm »
The digital camera analogy is a nice one.  To explain or visualize dynamics or soundstaging I like to t lk about how more megapixels means better depth of field...not in the lens sake, but in the viewers sake.  In a lower megapixel camera that shaft of wheat in the distant background is made up of like one pixel wide, whereas with a much more detailed camera the background shafts of wheat look like, er, wheat!  The eye and brain now understand how far that wheat is away from the subject and can translate a better feeling of depth.  it's similar in true (i.e. natively recorded) hirez, whether PCM or DSD.  The low level cues and backgrounds, the decaying harmonics, the 40khz horn harmonics, all generate a much better image of what is going on in the music, whether you actually hear it, feel it (some say higher than 20khz does act on the skin, etc)...the illusion becomes more real, and the brain relaxes into enjoyment.   Or at least that's my $.02  :)

Netdewt

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Re: What does hi-res mean, technically?
« Reply #19 on: 20 Jan 2012, 07:09 pm »
I'm not sure about anyone else, but it helps me to think of digital audio resolution much the same way as I think of the resolution of a digital photo.  If I'm taking a picture of someone's face, I know that I can get more detail into the picture by zooming in.  If I'm zooming out, their face only takes up maybe 50% of the image in the photo and I get less facial details (16 bits).  If I zoom in, their face may then occupy 80% of the digital image, and I'll get more detail (24 bits). 

If I want to print that digital image on my printer, I know I can get a better print if I increase the dots per inch (DPI) setting on the printer.  If I use a setting of 300 dpi (44.1khz) the picture may look OK from a distance but if I look closely I'll note some missing or blurred information in the picture.  The image won't look as sharp.  However, if I increase the dpi setting on the printer to 600 (96 khz and up), the image will look much sharper on the paper, and the details will be rendered much more accurately. 

I like the photography analogy, but where it breaks down for me is that I can't hear any audio "pixels" in 16/44. I'm listening to 16/44 now and it sounds pretty dang awesome.

Also, in digital images, bit depth has to do with the amount of colors that are possible to display, not with resolution or "pixelization" or "banding". It has more to do with the smoothness of color gradients in very saturated or monotone sections of the photograph.



In RGB images, there are 3 channels (red, green, blue) with 256 colors per channel (8-bit). So 256x256x256... you can have any one of 16,777,216 colors in any pixel. Usually I will work in Photoshop with 16-bit per channel color (281 TRILLION colors) so that any changes I make will make less of an impact on the overall image integrity. Then we usually send out the images in 8-bit per channel color because they are half as big, and there is no reason to keep that much data when it is completely imperceptible to any human being.

I understand the concept of bit depth in audio a little more than I understand the sample rate. For me, using a 192 kHz sample rate for playback is akin to having pixels the size of molecules, which we will never be able to perceive without help. In recording, I get it because everything goes to the studio to get tweaked.