[I.Greyhound Fan]

I was wanting to know which reasonalby priced E88CC tubes have warmer sounds.  I recently bought a budget DAC/Pre for a secondary system (Grant Fidelity DAC-11) and want to warm up the sound.  The stock 6N11 tube is too bright for my Magnepan MMG's and the Class D Audio amp.  Otherwise the Grant unit is very nice for the price.

I am not familiar with these tubes as my tube gear in my main system use 6CG7's.  The DAC-11 takes only 1 tube and can use 6922, E88CC, 6DJ8, 6H23N and CCa tubes.

I have been looking at Holland Amprex bugle boys form the 1950's, 1960's,  Amprex A frames, Telefunken, Mullard 1960's with Halo Getter, Mullard from 1970's, phillips.

Thanks for the help,

Larry

[Jon L]

In general, it does not pay off for long-term satisfaction picking tubes as a band-aid.  I think even though you are asking for "warmer," what you are really objecting to is the sterile, hard sound one can get with certain tubes that truncate true top-end air and gives incomplete harmonics. 

Some of those tubes you mention are good tubes, but often $$$.  Go ahead and tube-roll as your budget allows, but make sure you at least try a really nice, reasonably-priced current-production tube like JJ E88CC. 

http://thetubestore.com/teslaecc88.html

[Steve]

I was wanting to know which reasonalby priced E88CC tubes have warmer sounds.  I recently bought a budget DAC/Pre for a secondary system (Grant Fidelity DAC-11) and want to warm up the sound.  The stock 6N11 tube is too bright for my Magnepan MMG's and the Class D Audio amp.  Otherwise the Grant unit is very nice for the price.

I am not familiar with these tubes as my tube gear in my main system use 6CG7's.  The DAC-11 takes only 1 tube and can use 6922, E88CC, 6DJ8, 6H23N and CCa tubes.

I have been looking at Holland Amprex bugle boys form the 1950's, 1960's,  Amprex A frames, Telefunken, Mullard 1960's with Halo Getter, Mullard from 1970's, phillips.

Thanks for the help,

Larry

I have tried alot of 6dj8s, although not all by any means, and the JJ is the most natural sound I have found. Not thin or sterile, and not too lush either. It is the only one I have found that I could obtain perfect sound. However, like Jon alluded to, the design is also paramount.

If it has small .47uf, 1uf coupling capacitors, the sound will be thin. I would increae the size of the coupling capacitors as well, if there is room.
The trick with the older types, octals etc, is the added harmonics to artificially enrich the sound. Unfortunately that approach simply does not solve problems with the tubes and as such I moved on. 

Cheers.
 

[wolfbane]

I was wanting to know which reasonalby priced E88CC tubes have warmer sounds.  I recently bought a budget DAC/Pre for a secondary system (Grant Fidelity DAC-11) and want to warm up the sound.  The stock 6N11 tube is too bright for my Magnepan MMG's and the Class D Audio amp.  Otherwise the Grant unit is very nice for the price.

I am not familiar with these tubes as my tube gear in my main system use 6CG7's.  The DAC-11 takes only 1 tube and can use 6922, E88CC, 6DJ8, 6H23N and CCa tubes.

I have been looking at Holland Amprex bugle boys form the 1950's, 1960's,  Amprex A frames, Telefunken, Mullard 1960's with Halo Getter, Mullard from 1970's, phillips.

Thanks for the help,

Larry

I have the same GF Dac. It is not as warm sounding as the DAC-09 which is warm sounding even with the original Chinese tube in it. To warm up the DAC-11 you can use Mullards, Brimar or Amperex ECC88/6DJ8 tubes (made in Holland) late 1950's and early 1960's.

Wb

[I.Greyhound Fan]

I don't think that rolling tubes in the DAC-11 is a bandaide.  The sound is slightly bright and my humble 2 yrs of experience in rolling 6CG7 tubes in my tube preamp and tube DAC has shown that there are huge differences in 6CG7 tubes.  ElectroHarmonix 6CG7's are unbearably bright in my system but NOS Raytheon Black Plates from the 1950's are lush, warm and beautiful sounding.  Probably the best of the 6CG7 line.

I was hoping that I could find something similar in the E88CC's.  And besides the DAC-11 is not going any where soon.  It is only being used in a secondary system in my work out area in my basement.

Many thanks,

Larry

[tabrink]

Hi Larry,
I have been tube rolling with my DAC 11 and have settled on a 60's RCA 6DJB/ECC88 non gold pin manufactured for RCA by Mullard and it has proven to be an outstanding swap. I originally stuck in a new JJ E88CC gold pins and thought I liked it as it was an improvement over stock. The Mullard/RCA was a big step up over the JJ and exponentially better than the stock tube.
Warmth and clarity would be the descriptives I would use for my DAC 11 at this point.
Hope this helps.
Tom

[bunnyma357]

I've tried a bunch of 6DJ8 variants - my favorite has been the "Rocket Label" Voskhod 6n23p (same thing as Russian character 6H23N). 


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-pair-6N23P-ECC88-6DJ8-Voskhod-Gold-Logo-NOS-/130623005438?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item1e69bce2fe#ht_4501wt_884

(No affiliation or experience with this seller)


Jim C

[I.Greyhound Fan]

Thanks for the info guys, its much appreciated.  You can drop a lot of money looking for the right tubes when rolling as I did with my 6CG7's.  It is nice to have a starting point of reference.

By the way.   The DAC-11 is a real bargain at $325 as a preamp and DAC.  While it can't compete with $1000 plus DAC's and preamps it holds it own with more expensive units.

Tom, how do you like your unit?

[ryno]

last night I replaced the stock tube with a holland made amperex ECC88 halo getter. It tamed the brigtness I was getting with my MG12's. For the price, the DAC-11 seems nice. It's going to have to last me at least a year.
Ryan

[I.Greyhound Fan]

Ryno, if the sound is still a touch too bright, try inserting the 1 ohm tweeter resistor that comes with the Maggies.  It decreases High Frequency by 2 dB.  I have tried this and it works nicely.  I am using a lower value resistor of 0.75 ohms which I like better, not as much attenuation.  It takes out just a smidge of the high frequency edginess of my MMG's and MG 1.6's. The NTE wirewound 25watt resistors can be bought here-

http://www.moyerelectronics.com/Departments/Products/NTE/NTE-Resistor/NTE-Power-Wirewound-Resistor/25-Watt-Cermet-Power-Wirewound.aspx

[SteveFord]

Amperex Bugle Boys work well if you need more midrange and depth.
I'm currently using 6 "Rocket Label" Voskhod 6n23p along with 2 Amperex Bugle Boys in my Sonic Frontiers preamps with real good results.
The Rocket Label tubes are very clear and dynamic with great highs so it's all what you want.

[Steve]

Hi Larry,
I originally stuck in a new JJ E88CC gold pins and thought I liked it as it was an improvement over stock. The Mullard/RCA was a big step up over the JJ and exponentially better than the stock tube.
Hope this helps.
Tom

I defer, the Mullard probably sounded better in that particular design. To clear up any confusion, I was referring to sound in absolute terms.
The 6H23n-EBs are thinner, more sterile than the JJs. The bugle boys are nice, but the harmonic structure is a little off as well, and the HD is some 18db higher than JJs. Nice tubes though.

Cheers.

[bunnyma357]

The 6H23Ns are thinner, more sterile than the JJ, in absolute terms.

Also there are a number of different 6H23N's - I didn't care for the Reflektor's in my amp, but the Voskhods sounded great - definitely not thin or sterile.


Jim C

[Steve]

Also there are a number of different 6H23N's - I didn't care for the Reflektor's in my amp, but the Voskhods sounded great - definitely not thin or sterile.


Jim C

Mine is cryod 6H23n-EB, with Russian data sheets. Don't see the actual manufacturer. This particular tube is definitely thinner than the JJ in a given circuit. The harmonic structure is also not quite as good compared to the JJ.
It could be fuller than the DAC's stock tube and preferred in that  particular design.
 
Maybe I was not as clear as I should have been. I will attempt to correct my last post.

Cheers and great weekend.

[bunnyma357]

Mine is cryod 6H23n-EB from Cryoset, with Russian data sheets. Don't see the actual manufacturer. This particular tube is definitely thinner than the JJ in a given circuit. the harmonic structure is also not quite correct. Maybe I was not clear enough. Will check back and correct any confusion in my previous post. 

Cheers and great weekend.

The Cryoset site lists the tubes as "Made at the Reflector Plant in Saratov", I had some of these (non-cryoed) and had high hopes for them, since they are the mil-spec "EB" or "EV" designation - but, I found them kind of uninvolving & lifeless - I preferred the non-mil spec Voskhod "Rocket Logo" by a large margin. Looking at the tube internals between the Reflektor and Voskhod, they're pretty different.

Generally you can tell the Russian tube manufacturers by the logo on the tube - the link below shows the logos and the factories they match:

http://www.ominous-valve.com/russtube.html


Jim C

[Steve]

The Cryoset site lists the tubes as "Made at the Reflector Plant in Saratov", I had some of these (non-cryoed) and had high hopes for them, since they are the mil-spec "EB" or "EV" designation - but, I found them kind of uninvolving & lifeless - I preferred the non-mil spec Voskhod "Rocket Logo" by a large margin. Looking at the tube internals between the Reflektor and Voskhod, they're pretty different.

Jim C

Thanks bunnyma357. Much appreciated. I also found the Saratov tubes uninvolving.

Cheers.

[bunnyma357]

Thanks bunnyma357. Much appreciated. I also found the Saratov tubes uninvolving.

Cheers.

And it's not that the Reflektor plant is bad, I have some Reflektor coin based 6P3S-E (6L6GC/5881 variant) power tubes that I love, it just seems that for audio use their 6n23p isn't the best in a lot of amps.  The good thing with Russian tubes is they are pretty cheap to try out and compare, kind of the poor man's route to vintage NOS tubes - I've had great luck buying direct from Soviet block countries through eBay.

The Russian tubes also seem to actually be NOS, whereas a lot of the American and European "NOS" tubes seem to actually be used tubes that still test OK.

Jim C

[Steve]

And it's not that the Reflektor plant is bad, I have some Reflektor coin based 6P3S-E (6L6GC/5881 variant) power tubes that I love, it just seems that for audio use their 6n23p isn't the best in a lot of amps.  The good thing with Russian tubes is they are pretty cheap to try out and compare, kind of the poor man's route to vintage NOS tubes - I've had great luck buying direct from Soviet block countries through eBay.

The Russian tubes also seem to actually be NOS, whereas a lot of the American and European "NOS" tubes seem to actually be used tubes that still test OK.

Jim C

357, have you had a chance to check out the pinched waist amperex tubes to compare? That is one tube I have not had a chance to check out. Seems hard to find.

Cheers.