should there be a peak age for audio reviewers?

Zero · « **Reply #40 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 03:11 am »

Shush Jim. No need to throw logic into the mix. I'm trying to seize a moment here...

Rclark · « **Reply #41 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 03:23 am »

Ah, maybe a bad idea. Oh well, it was worth a thought.

bside123 · « **Reply #42 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 03:36 am »

Young and ready...

Lyndon · « **Reply #43 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 03:52 am »

Din,
I love that photo. I bet I could hear a frog fart across the pond with a pair of those Clip(s)Horns!

*Scotty* · « **Reply #44 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 03:57 am »

I almost never take what I read at face value, there is usually an agenda in play. In the case of audio equipment reviews, I always bear in mind that the first goal of a publication is to continue publishing. This primary goal will always influence the editorial content of the publication.
Consider the consequences to the publisher if the publication no longer receives equipment sent to them for review. Imagine how this situation could arise and you will see how the opinion expressed in a review could influenced by the conditions under which reviewer operates.
I have never expected the opinion expressed in a review to be a reliable guide as to what a piece gear might sound like within the context of my personal system.
In my opinion hearing acuity is perhaps third on my list of potentially useful abilities a reviewer might possess. First on the list is the ability communicate via the written word what the reviewer heard when they listened to equipment in their system. Second is the experience to recognize if what they heard was good,bad or just different.
In my book experience is the qualification that might reduce the number of times a reviewer gets it wrong when they vote for component of the year. A reviewer only knows how something measures up relative to what they have personally heard. If they haven't heard a wide variety of equipment, especially gear capable of High Fidelity reproduction, than any opinion they might render concerning how something might sound relative to the best available is bound to fraught with error.
I have to admit that I don't read very many reviews, this activity is not a big part of the hobby for me.
Scotty

Rclark · « **Reply #45 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 04:10 am »

I have to rely on reviews exclusively, so it's a bigger deal for me... At least I have up to this point.

*Scotty* · « **Reply #46 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 04:23 am »

This is indeed an unfortunate position to be in.
Local audio clubs and visiting Audio Shows like RMAF can be useful additional sources of information.
30 day in home trials could also be helpful.
Scotty

Rclark · « **Reply #47 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 05:02 am »

I am about to review two sets of speakers, my GR Insignia's and my Magnestand's arrive tommorrow. For my review, I've learned so much about how much I don't know, so I'll keep my own reviews simple. However I will soon have measuring gear and I expect my hands on knowledge to take a big leap.

It is unfortunate.. However thanks to being able to read so much, I've been able to make excellent choices so far.

I plan on going to the next RMAF, although with the threads I make, I might have to show up in disguise.

Now I get to go back and read the bigger responses in this thread, I was at work all day and couldn't spend too much time looking at my phone.

Zero · « **Reply #48 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 05:17 am »

RClark,

I feel your pain. I've been in the same boat since I got into this gig nearly a decade ago. My own journey entailed reading lots of reviews/user opinions and then making lots of blind purchases. It was a tough (and pricey) way to earn an education - but the knowledge I gleaned from this kind of 'hands on' experience has proven to be extremely valuable.

That said, if I could do it all over again, I'd likely save up my monies and hit up a nice hi-fi show before splurging big money on gear. Unfortunately for me, shows like RMAF weren't around when I got into hi-fi. Fortunately for you, there are plenty of solid trade shows to attend these days. RMAF. TAVES. Son&Image. Any one of those should be fine. And although these shows can demand a lot of resources in terms of time and general expenses, I think it's safe to say what you get in return will pay big dividends. Not only will you be able to have fun with fellow audio nerds and hob nob with the very people who design hi-fi gear, you'll also get to hear a lot more stuff than you ever could if you were to buy equipment one piece at a time. Moreover, the experience should give you a solid idea on what kind of sound it is that you like... and what kind of products consistently deliver that sound.

And if you are unable to attend shows, and have no other options left but to depend on reviews - my advice would be to look for consistency among reviews - be them professional, amateur, or user opinions.

PDR · « **Reply #49 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 05:37 am »

And if you are unable to attend shows, and have no other options left but to depend on reviews - my advice would be to look for consistency among reviews - be them professional, amateur, or user opinions.

Thats all any of us can do......so far its worked for me in spades.
Unless of course.....you can afford to review all things you want.....but then you would just hire a reviewer......

Rclark · « **Reply #50 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 05:37 am »

Thanks Zero, I appreciate it. And yeah, the idea is I'll be able to make RMAF a road trip in '12 or just get a cheap ticket ahead of time. It will be my first audio show.

And yeah, PDR, I've poured over thousands and thousands of posts to arrive at the gear I have now.

wushuliu · « **Reply #51 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 05:57 am »

For me it's much more important that the reviewer has listened to a wide range of music itself, since that is what all judgement will be based on ultimately. I'm not sure if I would trust a review written by someone who had never even heard, say, Dark Side of the Moon (even if they didn't like it)

.

Carl V · « **Reply #52 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 07:05 am »

interesting discussion.
some observations from a 'just now eligible AARP' gear head.
Look at the freq, spectrum of musical instruments...1st & 2nd
harmonics too...even 3rd. Most of us can hear well in this range.
Most music exists in this range. A 50+ year old Music instructor
or Conductor can tell you who & what sounds good...& WHY.

1. Wine critics will use black bags, compare & contrast the bottles-
and they are 'experienced or trained tasters'. Yes, Sighted tasting are
always suspect. Same goes for Other alcohol tastings. Anything less is
suspect to Bias. " hear with our eyes...tastes with our eyes" be careful.

2. Food is often tasted under similar single blind conditions. 5-8 cheesecakes
lined up & tasted by the CIA instructors. Trained cooks,chefs & tasters.
Restaurant professionals
will do menu or recipe evaluations under single blind conditions to advise the best choices.

3. perfume "noses" are highly trained. They smell many recipes with
no label or bottle present....single blind & render an opinion.

4. Dynaudio, Revel/Harmon/JBL, NRC etc., preferred to use trained listeners under quasi blind
situations to render an opinion. The crucial part was experienced listeners & no knowledge of
the DUT.

5. Symphony auditions were once done sighted.... and as you might suspect there was
bias by the trained musical evaluators. It was shown & proven in a court of law that\once the audition was conducted behind an opaque screen...more women or people of color were chosen
for spots in the symphony. Or simply less 'attractive people' were deemed qualified.

6.A Piano restorer, luthier can identify many subtle variations...with a fair degree of
repeatability. It isn't always better or worse...but different & they can articulate what
is different & perhaps why.

We don't all have to do Statistically significant A/B/X trials.
However, a simple single blind evaluation should not be problematic.
Nor does it need to be the end all of all evaluations, but it should be part of the
evaluation.

And there is a difference between a Professional opinion & that of a rank amateur
or at least there should be.

I recall sitting next to an 'experienced reviewer' while we all listened to a
nice audition of Brittens's (sp?) young person's Guide to the Orchestra
....the reviewer had no idea what instrument was being featured
& made profound erroneous conclusions.

This is where I have some concern. Many times the reviewer will speak in
absolutes...strong or assertive prose. Silly descriptors such as Neutral, get's
out of the way, imparts no coloration etc., when in fact all components editorialize.
But 'professional reviewers' often succumb to the emperors clothes trap.

I have no problem with 'preferences' or 'impressions' but far too often the review
is worded with more definitive phrases.

Another observation with some print media is the # of words allocated to one
component VS another. Often times the mega dollar product gets a greater
word count.

And lastly why does it take a Stereo or Hi-Fi reviewer months to come to a conclusion
when a Conductor or Music instructor can make an informed conclusion quickly. A luthier
can listen and draw a meaningful conclusion within minutes or an hour. Piano tuners or
restorers can render a meaningful conclusion in a much more brief period of time. And don't
tell me about the notion of break-in etc., or the ephemeral "synergy". It either sounds good
or it doesn't. I would think that with in a week or so you should have a good idea. imho, ymmv

JohnR · « **Reply #53 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 10:14 am »

Quote from: Zero on 4 Jan 2012, 03:01 am

The funny (and somewhat sad) thing is that user reviews hold just as much, if not even more weight in the market than a full bore review published in </-insert webzene’s name here </.

Why funny or sad... that seems like normal behavior to me... To use the car analogy, if I am thinking about buying a new car and a neighbour drives home with one, I am very interested in what he has to say about it. OTOH, some guy I never met who drives a Ferrari and/or could drive any car he pleased... his opinion on that car is of very little value to me (and let's just clear up that I'm not in the market for a Ferrari anytime soon

).

JohnR · « **Reply #54 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 10:23 am »

Quote from: Rclark on 4 Jan 2012, 02:33 am

I'll use the example I just came up with because I rather like it. On the show Top Gear, they review cars, and they reserve the real test for their racing driver. same idea here.

Rclark... so in this scenario, the Top Guy guys are the distinguished audio reviewers, and the racing driver is... some young bloke?

What kind of car are we talking about here anyway? Is it a car that you would actually buy yourself?

Rclark · « **Reply #55 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 12:55 pm »

They test all kinds of cars but also they test the highest performance cars in the world. The one's running the show and doing all the talking and pontificating and comparing are old fuddy duddy's. But ultimately they aren't the one's who test the car to it's ultimate performance ceiling, they just talk about the leather. The real test falls, just as I said, to a race driver, yes, in the prime of his ability.

So I sort of envisioned audio reviews maybe being done in a similar manner, or at least, if a "racing ear" isn't available, that the old "bloke" who does the test let's us know where his ears are at. Because I believe it matters.

Are these cars I might someday buy? Speakers I might someday own? Sure! Why not? Nothing's impossible.

mfsoa · « **Reply #56 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 02:39 pm »

The Top Gear guys review the cars (= the audio reviewer telling us how he thinks something sounds) and then Stig sees how fast it goes ( = measuring audio gear to tell us what measuring equipment thinks about it).

Two very different things...

TONEPUB · « **Reply #57 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 03:09 pm »

Much as I love Top Gear, I could care less about how fast Stig can drive the car. A hi fi system exhibits the same performance no matter who is "driving" it.

It's not so much about Stig telling us how fast the car can go, it's about a constant. And most racing drivers will tell you that they don't give the same performance every day. This is kind of a "for show" thing, and while enjoyable and entertaining, hardly the last word on a car's performance.

Most people that own high performance sports cars (and I spent a LOT of time in this world) can barely scratch the surface of what their car is capable of, yet they blather on and on about the specs, etc etc.

I can drive a Boxster S around a track a lot faster than I can drive a Ferrari 430, even though the Ferrari is capable of so much more. And when I used to go to Porsche club events with my 944 Turbo (which I was constantly told wasn't a REAL Porsche) I could always dust the older guys in the tricked out 911's.

Which is why I'm not in love with cars anymore.

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #58 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 03:42 pm »

Quote from: Rclark on 4 Jan 2012, 03:23 am

Ah, maybe a bad idea. Oh well, it was worth a thought.

Thanks for owning up to the mistake.

Quote from: Rclark on 4 Jan 2012, 12:55 pm

They test all kinds of cars but also they test the highest performance cars in the world. The one's running the show and doing all the talking and pontificating and comparing are old fuddy duddy's. But ultimately they aren't the one's who test the car to it's ultimate performance ceiling, they just talk about the leather. The real test falls, just as I said, to a race driver, yes, in the prime of his ability.

So I sort of envisioned audio reviews maybe being done in a similar manner, or at least, if a "racing ear" isn't available, that the old "bloke" who does the test let's us know where his ears are at. Because I believe it matters.

So by your analogy, yourself being qualified as a younger person, should be able to outdrive Jackie Stewart, born 11 June 1939? Son, he'll eat you for lunch and pick his teeth with your bones. Age has nothing to do with it, it's learned skill that counts in race driving and audio reviewing.

Old timer · « **Reply #59 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 03:45 pm »

It's a shame that there is no test that will measure hearing acuity. You know, how well your brain can dissect the information given to you by the microphones, er, I mean ears.

We've all had hearing frequency tests done with low resolution headphones, ... "Press the button when you start hearing the sound". Those with faster response times will always have better tests, right?

Tonepub: Your 944 story reminds me of my Autocrossing days with a 1971 BRE Datsun 510. (Okay, so I'm old) I don't know what was more enjoyable, the pure joy of the event, or looking at the faces of those who had big, big bucks into their tricked out rides, after you turned in a time that was 30 seconds under theirs.