cone materials

JohnR · « **Reply #20 on:** 27 Dec 2011, 01:29 am »

Quote from: Æ on 27 Dec 2011, 01:17 am

I looked it up, HDA stands for "High Definition Aerogel"

Quite possible - I was actually joking

I'd be interested to know what if any properties could be attributed to specific cone materials that are not measurable (freq response, distortion, etc). I would expect the crossover/cabinet etc to have a greater effect. Having said that, I would avoid drivers with "breakup peaks" for active systems, as this will tend to amplify any electronic noise in the "hiss" region.

Æ · « **Reply #21 on:** 27 Dec 2011, 01:43 am »

Quote from: roscoeiii on 27 Dec 2011, 01:27 am

Oh, sorry about that. I misunderstood you when you wrote "Knowledge of them hasn't been of any audible value to me. I never choose a driver based solely on its material."

I remember way back, when Bextrene was all the rage, KEF did it, sounded OK, Audax did it, and they sounded horrible, but Dalesford had their version of Bextrene and it sounded great. Same thing with polypropylene, earlier versions often sounded plastic. Then I listened to a SEAS (P17RCY) polypropylene and to the FOCAL (5N411L) coated polypropylene. Big difference.

JLM · « **Reply #22 on:** 27 Dec 2011, 05:09 am »

My Ascend Acoustics CBM-170's (inexpensive 2-way standmounts that have been highly recommended in the press) use Aerogel mid/woofers.

But I agree, the proof is in the sound. I've owned mostly poly, but my babies are EnABL'd paper.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #23 on:** 27 Dec 2011, 05:34 am »

Hemp! ........

:

Rclark · « **Reply #24 on:** 27 Dec 2011, 05:43 am »

My GR Insignia's are carbon fiber, and man they sound nice. Very natural sound. And you can see light pouring through the mesh when held up against a light.

srb · « **Reply #25 on:** 27 Dec 2011, 06:19 am »

Most speakers I have heard with these Scan-Speak paper cones sound really natural. Of course, other speaker elements (motor, suspension, etc.) and the design may have something to do with that beyond the cone material.

Steve

rmurray · « **Reply #26 on:** 27 Dec 2011, 03:28 pm »

Magnet types play a role on how the whole device responds. This could be why there are variables with like materials.

tshifrin · « **Reply #27 on:** 28 Dec 2011, 03:58 pm »

From Ray Alden's "Speaker Building 201" in the first chapter under Timbre Quality-
"If you compare two speakers systems that have a flat response and use a similar format with comparably sized drivers, little doubt that your final aural impression of them will be affected by the different materials they use." (The discussion goes further.)

Food for thought...
Tom

Æ · « **Reply #28 on:** 28 Dec 2011, 04:14 pm »

Quote from: tshifrin on 28 Dec 2011, 03:58 pm

From Ray Alden's "Speaker Building 201" in the first chapter under Timbre Quality-
"If you compare two speakers systems that have a flat response and use a similar format with comparably sized drivers, little doubt that your final aural impression of them will be affected by the different materials they use." (The discussion goes further.)

Food for thought...
Tom

Yes, but I bet there are instances in which if you didn't have previous knowledge of the cone material, you wouldn't know for sure, or couldn't guess correctly.
When you cannot see through the grille cloth.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #29 on:** 28 Dec 2011, 04:20 pm »

Maybe there are diy folks lurking who could set up a comparison in the same box, same crossover of drivers with similar specs other than cone materials.

Maybe time to check over at diyaudio, but man some of those threads are looong.

Quote from: Æ on 28 Dec 2011, 04:14 pm

Yes, but I bet there are instances in which if you didn't have previous knowledge of the cone material, you wouldn't know for sure, or couldn't guess correctly.
When you cannot see through the grille cloth.

Æ · « **Reply #30 on:** 28 Dec 2011, 07:56 pm »

Quote from: roscoeiii on 28 Dec 2011, 04:20 pm

Maybe there are diy folks lurking who could set up a comparison in the same box, same crossover of drivers with similar specs other than cone materials.

Maybe time to check over at diyaudio, but man some of those threads are looong.

I'm a DIYer and that would be a lot of work. Besides it isn't very often that one manufacturer makes a series of nearly identical drivers out of three different cone materials. My experience with drivers is: If they sound the same, they measure the same. And if they measure the same, they sound the same.

Æ · « **Reply #31 on:** 28 Dec 2011, 10:39 pm »

What is the best material for loudspeaker cones?
http://www.birotechnology.com/FAQ/index.html#conemat1

What are the characteristics of various cone materials?
http://www.birotechnology.com/FAQ/index.html#conemat2

Redefy Audio · « **Reply #32 on:** 29 Dec 2011, 12:56 am »

AE, wow you have so extensive listening experience

so far, would you please shorlist the most u impress with?

i found that, aluminum cones from jordan and alpairs are good for hifi sound, but yet paper cones from beyma seems the most natural for voicing.

cheers
henry

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #33 on:** 29 Dec 2011, 01:14 am »

I use the Beyma 5MP60/N, a FR with Polypropilene cone and the timbre is a plastic sound, otherside it is a good FR for the price.
http://www.nmine.com/multiamp/5MP60NE.pdf

Æ · « **Reply #34 on:** 29 Dec 2011, 01:50 am »

Quote from: henry218 on 29 Dec 2011, 12:56 am

Æ, wow you have so extensive listening experience

so far, would you please shorlist the most u impress with?

i found that, aluminum cones from jordan and alpairs are good for hifi sound, but yet paper cones from beyma seems the most natural for voicing.

cheers
henry

Drivers, manufacturers or materials?

I'm a long time Do It Yourselfer, I've been building loudspeakers since the early 1980s. Paper cones are the most ubiquitous and are my most used when it comes to Full Range Drivers, but I don't like the fragility of paper cones. Have you ever seen a paper coned woofer in a junkyard car? Bleached, brittle and crumbling. For a big woofer I'd probably pick poly, it's not hygroscopic.
I kind of shy away from aluminum, just because it has so may problems, breakup etc, aluminum is difficult to use. If you use aluminum within it's limits, all is well, but that means a very steep lowpass. On the other hand, aluminum dome tweeters have come a long way and I've liked several of them.
Pretty much all of the high tech man made materials have been to my liking, Kevlar is a good example. But you always pay a premium for cutting edge technology.

SET Man · « **Reply #35 on:** 29 Dec 2011, 01:51 am »

Quote from: srb on 27 Dec 2011, 06:19 am

Most speakers I have heard with these Scan-Speak paper cones sound really natural. Of course, other speaker elements (motor, suspension, etc.) and the design may have something to do with that beyond the cone material.

Steve

Hey!

I do like natural material like paper. I found those Scan Speak drivers intriguing. What arenthey trying to do there is controling the cone resonance and break up mode. The first one is a slit cone and the second one seem to be raised paper... maybe a bit thicker on the line. Beside controlling the resonance those give the cone some reenforcement also. Pretty clever I must say but it is nothing new.

Take care,
Buddy

JBLMVBC · « **Reply #36 on:** 29 Dec 2011, 06:38 pm »

Redbook,

In the past I have used the Kevlar Davis 20TK8 series with alnico magnet and TW20K2F double ferrite magnet. http://www.davis-acoustics.com/les-haut-parleurs/serie-kevlar
They were a nice, high quality combination. I also recall superb transients from light paper cone midranges in the 80s from Siare, Audax.

Now if you truly want some dynamic and lack of coloration I can only advise to switch to horn/compression: JBL 1" or 2" in midrange and since they do not manufacture the tweeters, horn loaded Fostex. More expensive for sure, but unbeatable detail. Multi amplified a must.

jackman · « **Reply #37 on:** 29 Dec 2011, 07:14 pm »

I'd like to hear from some speaker designers because I believe implementation plays a major role. Having heard Roscoe's SP Tech Mini's, with aluminum cone woofers, and several well designed speakers with metal coned woofers, metal coned woofers don't have to sound cold or "metallic". Those Mini's sound very accurate and a shade warm (in a good way) in his system.

My magnesium mids are not warm but they aren't cold and sterile as many people seem to think. The Ronin speakers I have on loan have aluminum woofers and magnesium mids and they do not sound sterile or cold. Their sound depends on what they are fed. Class A makes them warm and SS makes them sound clean and detailed.

I'm sure these drivers sound different depending on the design. I've heard good and bad sounding designs using all kinds of materials. I don't think there are any universal rules, at least not in my experience. By the way, the SP Minis are very impressive. Still can't believe the bass they can produce and the beautiful balance they have in Roscoe's system. I hope he tires of them and sells them to me someday!

roscoeiii · « **Reply #38 on:** 29 Dec 2011, 08:06 pm »

Yeah, I have to agree with jackman on these aluminum cones in the SP Minis. Paired with the Aragon he brought down these are heaven. For those that are curious, the driver is a SEAS L18RNX/P and it is crossed over at 800Hz.

redbook · « **Reply #39 on:** 29 Dec 2011, 08:08 pm »

I currently have the polyprpolene JBl 104's. I was thinking of changing them to the paper cone kits . . The other idea is to install my LE5 mid to see what happens ( they have the same frame size but use alnico magnets rather than ceramic. This was the reason for my original post.