Can the 26wpc Decware Torii drive VR-33s?

Gopher · « **on:** 21 Dec 2011, 09:19 pm »

I'm tempted to try these speakers due to room issues I'm having, but would want them to be a drop in replacement for my Zus. I like the system I've put together.

I see the VR-33s are 90db efficent, but I also notice the power range given is 50-500...

Would my Torii be adequate? The front wall placement would be a REAL benefit to my living room.

mca · « **Reply #1 on:** 21 Dec 2011, 10:35 pm »

How large is your room and how loud do you listen? I have my VR-33s in a 14' x 18' room and drive them in triode mode with my Ayon Spirit II tube amp with no problem. Ayon says triode mode is good for 35wpc, but it measures closer to 25-30wpc.

steve f · « **Reply #2 on:** 31 Dec 2011, 08:27 pm »

Gopher,

The Zu line is about 98 for efficiency. If you want to play at the same volume level, you will need about four times the power. Now if you don't crank it up much you can certainly get by. Why not try it out. In any case there are plenty of amps, both tube & solid state, in the 100-150 wpc range that aren't all that expensive. The Tori is popular enough to Audiogon off easily. The most important parts of a hi-fi system are first the recording, obviously, and then the speaker system. (I'd always put my money there, long before I'd worry about an amp.) The VR-33 appears to be a good choice for real rooms. Maybe some VR-33 owners can comment on room match-up.

Steve

Freo-1 · « **Reply #3 on:** 31 Dec 2011, 10:05 pm »

My input would be no. The VR-33's need a fair bit of current to drive properly. A 26 watt tube amp, while a great amp, would not be a great match.

A better amp for those would be something along the lines of a Threshold SA-3, SA-3.9, or one of the Class A Pass Lab amps of 50 watts or greater. The Nelson Pass gear does not sound like solid state, it just sounds like music.

Gopher · « **Reply #4 on:** 1 Jan 2012, 05:16 pm »

I'm not at all worried about the Toriis resale value, I've had unsolicited emails from people asking me to sell them mine, lol. The issue is more along the lines of me NOT wanting to let go of it.. the thing is excellent!

My room is a little irregular in that the two rear (behind me) corners open outward and my right wall is a half wall opening into my kitchen, but basic dimensions are 16x19.

Actually, I'm having second thoughts on the vr33s. I did some more tweaking around with my current loudspeakers and they really are exceptional, but I imagine the vr33s are an easy resell if they aren't my preference.

achappy · « **Reply #5 on:** 2 Jan 2012, 01:12 am »

I have a Thor Audio TA-1000 Mark II tube preamp with a gain of 20db and a Nelson Pass First Watt F5 which is a Class A, 25-watt, solid state amp with a gain of 15db. My room is 13'W X 17'L x 8'H with the VR-33's on the long wall, 10' apart, with a listening position of approximately 10.5' from each speaker. The VR-33's are 6" from the front wall, toed-in 1/4"; in my room this toe-in is absolutely essential. When listening to classical music, loud is 1pm on the pre-volume control. I usually listen with the dial straight up, 12 o'clock. All other music is loud at 11am and I usually listen around 10am. So a gain of 25db, 15db on the amp, 10+-db on the preamp. And that leaves me approximately 10db in the loud to very loud range.

achappy · « **Reply #6 on:** 3 Jan 2012, 06:21 pm »

Quote from: achappy on 2 Jan 2012, 01:12 am

I have a Thor Audio TA-1000 Mark II tube preamp with a gain of 20db and a Nelson Pass First Watt F5 which is a Class A, 25-watt, solid state amp with a gain of 15db. My room is 13'W X 17'L x 8'H with the VR-33's on the long wall, 10' apart, with a listening position of approximately 10.5' from each speaker. The VR-33's are 6" from the front wall, toed-in 1/4"; in my room this toe-in is absolutely essential. When listening to classical music, loud is 1pm on the pre-volume control. I usually listen with the dial straight up, 12 o'clock. All other music is loud at 11am and I usually listen around 10am. So a gain of 25db, 15db on the amp, 10+-db on the preamp. And that leaves me approximately 10db in the loud to very loud range.

rollo · « **Reply #7 on:** 3 Jan 2012, 06:30 pm »

Quote from: Gopher on 1 Jan 2012, 05:16 pm

I'm not at all worried about the Toriis resale value, I've had unsolicited emails from people asking me to sell them mine, lol. The issue is more along the lines of me NOT wanting to let go of it.. the thing is excellent!

My room is a little irregular in that the two rear (behind me) corners open outward and my right wall is a half wall opening into my kitchen, but basic dimensions are 16x19.

Actually, I'm having second thoughts on the vr33s. I did some more tweaking around with my current loudspeakers and they really are exceptional, but I imagine the vr33s are an easy resell if they aren't my preference.

Gopher, after hearing your system. LET IT BE. Save your money buy a house and have a better room. It is not the amp it is the room. You have made the best of it so far.

charles

poseidonsvoice · « **Reply #8 on:** 3 Jan 2012, 06:41 pm »

Quote from: rollo on 3 Jan 2012, 06:30 pm

Gopher, after hearing your system. LET IT BE. Save your money buy a house and have a better room. It is not the amp it is the room. You have made the best of it so far.

charles

+100.

Anand.

Gopher · « **Reply #9 on:** 3 Jan 2012, 07:10 pm »

Rollo,

Thanks for your thoughts! It means a lot to me that you enjoyed my rig--especially as I know you were previously a Zu hater. When you heard my rig though, the living room was configured a bit differently. We're in the process of trying to stage our condo to put it on the market (and buy that dedicated listening room--err... house) and with the furniture moved around, much of the magic is lost.

I've struggled with placement on more then one occasion and, knowing my problem is THE ROOM not the components, I thought I might try a speaker meant to compliment a room like mine better.

I don't think the amp is wrong by any means. In fact, NOT wanting to change the amp is what prompted this thread. I wanted to try a direct plug in replacement speaker with my carefully selected supporting equipment.

I'll get that opportunity tonight, UPS willing, as the VR-33s are out for delivery now.

My Zu Soul Superflys haven't been sold and won't be on the market unless it is clearly the right decision.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #10 on:** 3 Jan 2012, 08:13 pm »

Looking forward to hearing how this works out Fred. I say find what works best in your space, and accept that there may be things that you will need to sacrifice for now. I think the VR-33s are a good call based on your needs and what I recall of your place. Not convinced that the Torii will work with them though. Coming from the lower watt world, I found that my new speaks (SP Tech Minis) really shone with more power (200W from an Aragon 4004). That got me what the Atma-sphere S-30 didn't have the power to provide.

BigSwede · « **Reply #11 on:** 3 Jan 2012, 08:36 pm »

They will need a lot of break-in, unless you arranged for factory break-in...I experienced premature buyers remorse upon first listen, but they got substantially better quickly, and improved for several hundred hours beyond that.

Gopher · « **Reply #12 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 03:26 pm »

I missed a call while helping UPS get my boxes upstairs and hours later after setting the speakers up and sitting down I checked my voicemail.. it was Albert VS!

He said two of his favorite amps with the VR-33 are an 18watt 300b and a 211 amp with not much more power and that the Torii should be fine. Listening to things, my gut tells me there wasn't a power issue and that Albert is correct in this regard, though I don't know if SYNERGY or everything is really on. I've got a lot of tubes on hand and will play around with the Torii further to see if I can get a sound I like. I came close, but my Zu do some things better thus far--placement is rough and the speakers were in the cold for 5 days though.

This pair was purchased used from a fellow ACer and should be fully burned in, though I know they'll take some time to loosen up after being in freezing temps.

I see potential and like how they work placement wise (roughly), but my Zus and their synergy with my system is very strong as Rollo observed.

steve f · « **Reply #13 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 06:10 pm »

Gopher,

You do have your work cut out for you. You are already used to your existing system. By changing speakers, the differences are going to be suspicious at first. Try living with the VR-33's for a week or two and then go back and forth to compare speakers. ( I know I have a bias because I do not like the EL-34 tube.) Let us know what you decide please. Good luck.

Steve

roscoeiii · « **Reply #14 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 06:12 pm »

Once those new speaks have warmed up, looking forward to what +/-s you find compared to the Zus.

Gopher · « **Reply #15 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 06:54 pm »

Steve,

You raise a good point--I'm very used to my Zus and never stopped loving the sound, so its not a blank slate. I do have another amp to try on it tonight--a Virtue TWO.2 I'm borrowing from my dad. It drives his earlier design Vons pretty well, so I'll see how things work out.

Roscoe,

A preliminary contrasting of the merits is:

Zus are more dynamic and have greater top to bottom transparancy. In the midrange that accounts for more subtle inflections and emotion being communicated SO FAR. More power may open things up nicely.

The Zus are more harmonically developed and are faster. They also have a raw quality and their tweeter can be a bit fatiguing if placement isn't SPOT on.

The 33s have much more low end information--a lot of atmospheric stuff I didn't know was going on in my recordings is revealed. They're also a smoother speaker which I have to get used to--more refined in contrast to the raw Zu quality I know and kinda love. Theres less harmonic density with the Vons--they aren't lean, but not as rich as the Zus and a bit less texture--I'm a texture whore and the Zus do this great. The tweeter seems to be better, non fatiguing with little attention paid to placement.

Jury's still out and I've gotta do my due diligence before picking any winners.

pardales · « **Reply #16 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 08:22 pm »

Good luck with your experiment. Also, as you know, minor adjustment to the placement of your speakers can do a lot; while they are generally room-friendly, the 33's can benefit from minor adjustments. If at all possible, live with your new set-up for a month or so after you get them dialied in.

Thanks for sharing and have fun.

Gopher · « **Reply #17 on:** 9 Jan 2012, 05:04 pm »

I don't think the Torii is a great match for the VR-33s. After giving it a fair shake, I find the combination to be overly polite and dull, which is something the Torii definitely ISN'T.

I'm borrowing an Alchemist Forsetti and a pair of Rawson build Aleph clones from a buddy and the Forsetti is a step in the right direction. With it in place the VR-33s are actually pretty good. I'm starting to see their staging capability and they've gotten a bit more dynamic. I'll have to listen more to see if its just getting used to the sound, but right now I think I still prefer my Superfly's with my Decware Torii--even without ideal placement.

That said, I'm starting to see why people like the VR-33s. I'll give the Rawsons a listen in the next couple days once I've gotten a handle on things.

sunnydaze · « **Reply #18 on:** 9 Jan 2012, 05:26 pm »

Fred---

You have the Forsetti "Signature". Designed by Tim De Paravicini, it is a completely different animal than the regular Forsetti. Apart from upgraded parts, the "signature" is also less powerful: 100wpc vs 150wpc for regular version.

Enjoy!

BigSwede · « **Reply #19 on:** 10 Jan 2012, 03:17 pm »

Quote from: Gopher on 9 Jan 2012, 05:04 pm

I don't think the Torii is a great match for the VR-33s. After giving it a fair shake, I find the combination to be overly polite and dull, which is something the Torii definitely ISN'T.

Neither are the VR33s...I love how dynamic they are. I am running a 120 wpc Bel Canto eVo2i, so obviously a very different amp than yours...