[John Casler]

I just finished "installing" an incredible (as in cheap performer) new "acoustic treatment" I found at COSTCO.

And it cost all of $12.99  

It is called: Supreme EasyLiner and comes in a 24" x 20' roll.

It is a multipurpose material and is very sound absorbant.  It can be cut (with a pair of scissors) to any size.

It has small openings in its structure so a single layer does not block or absorb "all" sound.  This gives those who wish a gradient control of reflection to slightly control the amount reflected, using an appropriate size and mounting it directly on the surface with no space in between.

Mounting it directly on a hard reflective surface will offer less "contol" than allowing it to be 1/2 - 2 inches off the surface.  And of course, more layers and larger sizes will allow the adjustement of additional control.

I placed mine "over" a single 3" acoustic foam layer on my front wall and it multiplied the "depth of soundstage" by 2!!!

If you use it by itself, I would suggest placing a layer "on the wall" then if possible hanging the next layer with at least 1" space.

You might be "very" surprised at what $12.50 will get you.

It comes in a couple very attractive colors, and can be thrown in the washer and dryer (this might even make it better)  I saw blue, beige and white.

It can be mounted with thumbtacks on walls and ceilings since it is very light weight.

I would say that 2-3 layers (with a small space in between each layer if possible) will work sonic wonders.

As mentioned earlier it can be cut into "any" shape, as long as it is not larger than 24" x 20 feet.

[Rob Babcock]

Sounds pretty neat.  To bad we don't have Costco here.

[brj]

Interesting discovery, John!

I think I've seen it at Walmart and other stores (Home Depot/Lowes/Ace Hardware?) as well, so I'm guessing it wouldn't be too hard to find.

I looked up the manufacturer out of curiousity:
Duck Products Non-Adhesive Shelf Liners

[John Casler]

Sounds pretty neat.  To bad we don't have Costco here.

It might be available web direct or the 800 number might be able to direct you to a local retailer.  Look Here:
http://www.duckproducts.com/products/detail.asp?catid=5&subid=23&plid=103

All the colors and obviously the 24" width is not shown here

[rosconey]

never thought about using it that way-i have some from the dollar store that i use under the top i made for my vmps large sub so it wouldnt scratch it.sfuff was extra thick i have too go back and look for more

[MaxCast]

Hey, that's the stuff I lined my tool box drawers with.  Isn't it like, 1/8" thick?

[lonewolfny42]

Hey,... I use this product. First, cut a piece the size of the top of your speaker stand. Place it on stand top, add speaker. Now speaker will sit safe and sound....will not slide around (used it at Levi's rave with Phil's stands).

Second, if your doing any ladder work on a slippery floor(marble, tile), cut pieces for each ladder leg. Place between floor and ladder bottom. Now the ladder will not slip...and you'll be safe.[/list:u]
This product is also made by other companies...I've even picked it up for $.99 a roll.(not as wide, or as long.) [/list:u]

[John Casler]

Those all sound like it.  The beauty of it is that it can be cut or shaped to fit most any situation or need.

A single layer directly on a reflective wall will block/absorb "some" high frequencies, but still let some through.

A single layer 1/2 to 1" off the wall will block even more and slightly lower the frequency blocked, by almost effectively doubling the single sheet's perfeomance (I can explain this if you can't figure it out)

A double or triple or even more layers again move the affected frequency range affected even lower.

It won't do low mids or bass at all, unless you add it to something that will.

I also use it on the "beards" I use to reinforce the bass of the 626R's.  I use a MDF shelf that has about a 135 degree angle from the lower edge of the speaker, to the floor.  This angle while quite sharp still has some mid high refraction and this covering does away with that, but still allows the bass to be "directed" to the floor and then to me.

It appears to be some type of fiber or composite.

Very handy stuff, and not that bad looking.  If you were a little creative you might be able to put togther something even a little artistic, but not me    

[Tonto Yoder]

That's the shelf liner that has been DIYed into a None-Felt phono mat--


http://www.theanalogdept.com/nonefelt.htm

[JoshK]

Be wary, lest ye become Chuck Josephson!  

[JoshK]

How was that for a Nathan impersonation?

[John Casler]

Be wary, lest ye become Chuck Josephson!  

While "tweaks" can get very wild and in some cases less than beautiful, to develop a full blown case of "Chuckie's Syndrome", you need to watch Silence of the Lambs, Live in a Mobile Home or basement, and add alternative religious symbols and incense within a short period of time.

Chuckie's Syndrome will then manifest itself within a 2 week incubation period.  The malady can last from 2 weeks to 30 years and can be fatal if one practices AcoustaAphyxiation searching for the ultimate blackness between instruments????

 

But seriously, beneath all of Chuck's "craziness" was a hint of solid physics, carried to the extreme "with predjudice".

If I remember correctly his two biggest joys were reducing reflection and damping vibrations.  Good goals gone bad.

Bad Vibes, Bad Vibes,  Whatcha gonna do?

Whatcha gonna do?

When they come for you?    

   

Man, I've gotta go exercise some of this off.   Maybe I'll see Lilian M at the STAIRS (   )

[Tonto Yoder]

It has small openings in its structure so a single layer does not block or absorb "all" sound.  This gives those who wish a gradient control of reflection to slightly control  ...

Idea for seperating layers???---there's various foam rods at Home Depot from caulk backer rod to pipe insulation. They range in size from 3/8 inch to 2" respectively. Seems like that'd work to keep shelf liner seperate??

[Ethan Winer]

John,

> It is a multipurpose material and is very sound absorbant <

Not to burst any bubbles, but that stuff isn't useful as acoustic treatment. You'll get similar results with egg crates, which is to say not very good.

--Ethan

[John Casler]

John,

> It is a multipurpose material and is very sound absorbant <

Not to burst any bubbles, but that stuff isn't useful as acoustic treatment. You'll get similar results with egg crates, which is to say not very good.

--Ethan

Hi Ethan,

No, you're not bursting any bubbles.  

While I may not have explained the use well, it "IS" usefull and effective.

I know, since I am using it to a "useful and effective" result.

And it is also valuable to understand that "acoustic treatment" encompasses a "wide variety" of goals.

I am confused as to which "useful" property you feel the material "doesn't" have that I suggested.

And if I'm not mistaken, "eggcrate" acoustic foam has been, and is used for acoustic treatment, so maybe you are talking about "relative" usefullness.  I agree there are other things that can work equally well and or better, and are generally more expensive, or harder to get.

I would say that in order for a product to "have value" and usefullness, it should have a positive affect on the the control of the sound wave.  This would include absorption, diffusion, blocking or resisting, and directing or other.

This particular product can do some of those things.  It is certainly not "highly" reflective.  It is not totally absorbative and it does not affect all frequencies.  It also has holes in it which allow some sound energy to pass through.

If it is placed directly on a "reflective surface" these opening will allow direct reflection of some of the sound, while the rest will provide absorption, resistance and difussion of the remainder.

Placing a single sheet "slightly off" the wall will allow some sound to "pass thru" but upon being reflected off the wall surface, it is likely to encounter sound resistance/absorbption on the way back out.

Dual sheets increase this affect again and placing it over acoustic foam (as I suggest) adds further to the abilities.

Further more, this observation is made in a single plane.  That is assuming that the sound we are talking about is traveling in a straight line directlyat the flat surface of the material.  In all instances this will not be the case.

My use for example is on the front wall between the speakers.  This allows us to see other significant value to how it "affects" that sound coming from each speaker at a significantly different angle.

Sound traveling into the material at other angles will have slightly different results.

It appears that this material is some kind of composite and it's surface is "dimpled", which again adds to part of its abilities.

Its other values, which were my greater points, were that it was relatively inexpensive, could be used in multiple layers with or without space, adding great control, could easily be shaped (with a pair of scissors) was easy to mount or place, could be used in conjuction with other acoustic products, and is not "unattractive".

Unless it actually "screws" up the sound,   it still looks "useful" to me.

And please note, I didn't say it was the "best" treatment option.

I think that your assessment might have shed a little light on the fact that many times we look at a problem or make an assessment from a certain perspective and lose sight of the fact that it is only "part" of a whole which will affect the final result.

I find the same thing happens in the fields of biomechanics, anatomy and physiology.

But in any event, I saw it, I bought it, I used it, and I like the result.

[pugs]

I  have a large sliding glass door at my first reflection point.  I wonder if it would be useful to line the inside of my drapes with it.  Do you think it would help?

[Ethan Winer]

John,

> "eggcrate" acoustic foam has been, and is used for acoustic treatment <

I was talking about actual egg crates.

> I am confused as to which "useful" property you feel the material "doesn't" have that I suggested. <

Lots of materials absorb enough at high frequencies to make an audible difference in a room. The problem with most such home-made treatments is they affect only the highest frequencies. So when you use them they give a very lopsided reverb time - too short at the top of the spectrum and with no control at all below 1 or 2 KHz. Sure, you clap your hands and it sounds deader, but when you play real music it's still boomy and indistinct in the midrange.

The goal for all rooms is a uniform reverb time across the entire audible range. Likewise, to address Pugs' question, if you treat early reflections with material that's too thin it will help clarity somewhat, but not nearly as much as you'll get using something more substantial. Further, one big problem in all rooms is comb filtering near the boundaries. Very thin materials like these shelf liners do nothing to prevent the severe ripples that extend throughout the midrange.

> I saw it, I bought it, I used it, and I like the result. <

Well, there's no arguing with that! There's a saying in the pro audio business: If it sounds good, it is good.

--Ethan

[John Casler]

I  have a large sliding glass door at my first reflection point.  I wonder if it would be useful to line the inside of my drapes with it.  Do you think it would help?

Hi Pugs,

That is a tough question since I am not familiar with your room, or the type of curtains you're using.

If they are sheer, then they are blocking/absorbing very little.  If they are "plastic" or nylon based then they may even be somewhat reflective.  If they are a soft outer fabric with a "thermal" rubber based back layer  they may already be maximized in their location.

Actually a second set of curtains, (as a second layer) might be a cheaper and more attractive solution, if you feel the first layer is still lacking.

Layering acoustic materials can have a positive effect if the layers compliment each other.

This particular "shelf liner" is just one of those tweaks.  Because it has a level of acoustical porosity (meaning it lets some sonic energy through) it allows you to use it with "other" types of treatments to compliment each other.

And what Ethan says above is true.  It is not just High Frequencies you want to block or absorb.  It is a portion of the full frequency spectrum  that can cause problems.

Identifiying the offending sonic energy can really be a challenging adventure.

Just remember though that the "ears" are the best instruments to make the final judgement.

I have been told that hundreds of things "don't work" which, to my ears
'do" make a positive improvment.

But just like all other things in audio, there is this thing called preference.  We all have an idea of what we "think" it should sound like, or what "should" sound better.

Sometimes we find that interactive harmony between software, system, room and set up,     and sometimes we don't

Personally I get really excited when I have a "deep" 3-D soundstage with a highly detailed placement and a clear sonic image to the performers and instruments.

I have learned what to do to acheive this affect and it does take considerable "interaction" between the system/room elements.

Good luck in acheiving your "sound".

[AdamZuf]

Shalom! Bringing the thread to life, I hope..

John, I have a question, please.

Mounting it directly on a hard reflective surface will offer less "contol" than allowing it to be 1/2 - 2 inches off the surface. And of course, more layers and larger sizes will allow the adjustement of additional control.

What way would you suggest allowing the Easy Liner to "float" 2 Inchs from the wall?

Eithan,

Lots of materials absorb enough at high frequencies to make an audible difference in a room. The problem with most such home-made treatments is they affect only the highest frequencies. So when you use them they give a very lopsided reverb time - too short at the top of the spectrum and with no control at all below 1 or 2 KHz. Sure, you clap your hands and it sounds deader, but when you play real music it's still boomy and indistinct in the midrange.

Since I have a very small budget to treat my room, I was wondering what would be the cheapest solution you know to get down to the lower frequencies efficiantly in a satisfying way? (supposingly if I get bass traps to cover the lowest end)
My room is medium->large and my speakers will be quite high end (Selah Audio's Carnelian), so I want to do justice in here  

Thanks
Adam

[John Casler]

Shalom! Bringing the thread to life, I hope..

John, I have a question, please.

What way would you suggest allowing the Easy Liner to "float" 2 Inchs from the wall?

Thanks
Adam

Hi Adam,

Probably the best method is cheap curtain rods.  A few screws and bada-bing you have it.

Also for better results get some burlap or other such absorbant material and drape it over the front and back of this arrangement.  The fabric will affect the higher frequencies and the shelf liner the ones slightly below that.