[jazzcourier]

Squaredeal.com offers 2 mil outer sleeves at 60.00 for a case of 1,000. For the 3 mil the case of 1,000 will run you about 80.00 I can't find the price on the poly  inner sleeves but they are right around the same.I usually stock up a few times a year and buy them at their retail store in San Luis Obispbo  ( that would be in California)
the shipping on these sleeves gets a little pricey because of the weight.
   I wish i could put every record in a mofi type inner sleeve,i always have a few hundred of those on hand for records that deserve that kind of sleeve.The other poly inner sleeves are just fine.I am still pulling records out of my collection i have not played in ten years with the original paper sleeves and they are still fine,could go another 40 or 50 years like that in climate control.
   Squaredeal.com also sells new paper inner sleeves as well,although some of you may not be as brave as cheap Jack who has no fear of paper cuts in the "basement" He does get top marks in my little book for a little consideration for his family,something you rarely hear about on audio websites. A little too much paranoid whining about " my stuff " that my "wife" objects to, or the great quest to compromise your audio addiction with a realistic shared home life.So buck up guys and get your own basement and go play with your kid or walk your dog or kiss your wife.

[drjjpdc]

Hi.

Why all those hearsays & speculations? How come my many many hundreds of LPs ALL stored in paper sleeves for many years in my basement audio den get no abrasion nor mold problems even I've playing wet since day one. I got NIL expensive
record vacuum cleaner as I don't believe I need one.

(1) I don't know how often you guys got old recyled LPs from thrift stores. 95% of my
     hundreds & hundreds classical+pop LPs are preowned (for 75 cents a pop) & quite 
     a few got obvious scratches on them. But believe it or not, my picky ears can't
     detect any scratching noise thru my tube HiFi. So should I still worry too much
     any "micro abrasions" caused by their paper sleeves if there were really any at all?
(2) If the room is flooded for whatever reasons, fix the wetness first with dehumdifiers
     or whatever before playing any LPs. But please don't blame the paper sleeves for
     growing mold.
(3) Plastic sleeves'd be worse as they would store the moisture from
     the wet air & grow mold bigtime as they don't allow wetness from the vinyls to
     escape.
(4) Why "basements can be dangerous places" for stores vinyls in paper sleeves??
     If the place is too dry, plastic sleeves generate tons of static discharges on the
     vinyl surfaces which attracts dusts. Paper sleeves is FREE of such static problems.
     If the place is too wet, basement or main floors or whatever, fix the wetness with
     a dehumidfier first. so mold would not be an issue.
    This is a matter of humidity management which is is part of the vinyl game. No big
     deal!
Let me tell you why I use my house basement for my audio den.

(1) PRIVACY:-
     I don't want people walking around in my listening room during my music session.
     Likewise who wants to see boxes of audio hardware gadgets stagging all over
     the place in the family room? We got to be considerate for the other members of
     the family. Besides, not many like boom-boom noises all over the house. Unless
     one's single & live alone.
     
     Home sweet home upstair with the family. Sound sweet sound downstair in my
     basement. So every one in the family is happy.

(2) Quiet, dust free & constant temperature venue for music enjoyment.
     I can be very focussed & get better high definition audio in a very quiet enclosed
     area.

c-J
   

Jack,

Let me address the points I made because you are confused.

1) Most of my LP's are not bought for 75 cents each. Most have smooth plastic or rice paper and I figure those record manufacturers know how to pack their product and the reasons for doing so.

2) I agree about the basement for the mancave. It's easy to place equipment, cabling, shelves, etc. in a basement as opposed to the family room.

For the other points you are completely off base. Obviously your basement has never been flooded like mine was. It is not a matter "humidity management" when you have 4"-6" of H2O in your basement. By then you are into water management, humidity is the least of your problems. How about wet carpet, molding, paneling, sheetrock, etc.? Now throw in wet (I'm not talking a spritz from a bottle of record cleaner!) record jackets, sleeves and records themselves. I was not simply talking about mold but wetness in a catastrophe.

Now I not ignorant of humidity because I am also a target shooter and too much humidity is not good for gun metal parts either. I also like an occasional cigar outdoors as well and they require careful adjustment of humidity too. I was just trying to prevent maximum LP (also CD's and Laserdiscs as well) damage in a flood, not tweeking the humidity levels in your room. If your jackets or sleeves get wet, kiss them goodbye. Ditto your CD documentation. Also we are not talking clear crystal spring water in your basement, but dirty rain/flood water. The CD cases are not waterproof, so CD's will have to be cleaned as will any records that were in paper sleeves alone . My LP's in the plastic /paper jackets and paper sleeves alone required more extensive cleaning. My LP's in plastic sleeves with paper around them required no cleaning. All I had to do was to pull them out of the wet damaged sleeve and place them in qa new dry sleeve. Plastic will definitely save you a lot of work in a flood like mine.

As far as fixing a humidity problem, do you know that in my basement after the water was pumped out, it took 4 large commercial de-humidifiers, 4 fans about 2 weeks to dry everything out. It was 25'x15' so I was just trying to prevent anyone else getting screwed like me.                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

[cheap-Jack]

Jack,

(1) Let me address the points I made because you are confused.
(2) I was not simply talking about mold but wetness in a catastrophe.... Also we are not talking clear crystal spring water in your basement, but dirty rain/flood water.
(3) Plastic will definitely save you a lot of work in a flood like mine.
... so I was just trying to prevent anyone else getting screwed like me.                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

Nope, I am nt confused but some one here maybe.

(1) We were talking about mold for normal room condition. So humidity checking from time to time is imperial.

(2) But you shifted the venue to flooding which unfortunately occurred in yr basement. Flooding does not happen daily & therefore should be looked up as an accident. Once the accident is fixed by whatever way, & once things go back to normal then humidity is the thing we should watch out.

I have seen worse thing happened in my neighour's basement - sewage backup !!!
The stink smell lasted for ever even after the sewage was pumped out. But this was an accident. There could be much much more costly damages done to the furnishings in the basement vs LP sleeves which worth peanut relatively, be them paper or plastic.

But for daily LP playing, I'd definitely go for paper sleeves - zero static charges in dry weathters & more forgiving to humidlity as they allow moistures trapped on the discs to evaparate thru. Of course, I save a bundle to buy plastic sleeves from vendors for long run.

c-J

[drjjpdc]

c-j,

Actually you were the one talking about mold. Nobody before you mentioned it at all. I may be making a false assumption but I think the OP and those that followed were more concerned about paper scratching or having dry paper particles damaging the record surface.

I'm sorry c-j but "mold for normal room conditions" is really an oxymoron. Mold is not a feature of any normal room (unless you are talking about a sauna). When my basement flooded, I was concerned about mold because I had to get a few estimates, and it took them almost a week to set up their equipment. I will just tell the forum what Enviro-Care told me. Even though it took 5-7 days, they told me there was no concern about mold, because it took about two weeks of water in an enclosed room to have mold form in sheetrock or paneling. As long as the drying equipment is put in place before that time the equipment will lower the humidity level to a point that will prevent mold formation.

I only shifted the venue to flooding because that was a clear benefit of using plastic sleeves for me. As I said before, every LP that had a paper sleeve and got wet, required some serious cleaning. While my LP's with the paper/plastic sleeve combo just needed to pulled out and placed in a new dry sleeve. Unless you live in a desert or a on top of a mountain, there is always a chance of water in your house. Isn't it better to be prepared instead of staring at a bunch of wet LP jackets or LP's?

Lastly, although I have a VPI record cleaning machine and use it extensively, I have never heard of anyone besides you that played LP's so wet that fluid in a record sleeve after playing, was a cause for concern about mold. But to each his own.

[orthobiz]

Sleeve City has a super inner sleeve that looks like a double MoFi and it will spoil you for anything else.

It's expensive but a couple of times a year they have a 15 percent off sale.

Paul

[Delta Wave]

Sleeve City has a super inner sleeve that looks like a double MoFi and it will spoil you for anything else.

It's expensive but a couple of times a year they have a 15 percent off sale.

Paul

I've never been to their site, they have a lot of useful stuff.

[munosmario]

I only shifted the venue to flooding because that was a clear benefit of using plastic sleeves for me. As I said before, every LP that had a paper sleeve and got wet, required some serious cleaning. While my LP's with the paper/plastic sleeve combo just needed to pulled out and placed in a new dry sleeve. Unless you live in a desert or a on top of a mountain, there is always a chance of water in your house. Isn't it better to be prepared instead of staring at a bunch of wet LP jackets or LP's?

So is for fire...as you may or may not remember, Harry Pearson's home in Sea Cliff NY--also the headquarters of the Absolute Sound--was severely damaged by a fire, about 26 years ago. Out of those LPs in his valuable and extensive collection that survived direct burning, all of the LPs that were in any sort of plastic sleeve were terminally damaged as a result of the plastic sleeve melting and bonding into the grooves because of the surrounding heat. But out of those surviving direct burning, those stored in "only" paper sleeves survived undamaged. Interesting, isn't it? Probability aside, when it comes to risk management, what is good for some catastrophic event is no good at all for another type

[cheap-Jack]

(1) Actually you were the one talking about mold. Nobody before you mentioned it at all.
(2) I have never heard of anyone besides you that played LP's so wet that fluid in a record sleeve after playing, was a cause for concern about mold. But to each his own.

(1) Sorry you're wrong again. The mold problem was first brought up by Delta Wave in his Reply#10 dd Dec 13. Why should I worry about it as I never have had any mold issue with my many hundreds of Lps ALL stored in ALL paper sleeves. I firmly believe it is the paper sleeves that work wonder.

(2) Yes, I always play me LPs wet, very wet by applying ozonated steam distilled
     water with a large painting brush. I always towel dry them after each play & leave
     them to dry out before I put them back in their paper sleeves. So far so good.
     Again it's the paper sleeves that work wonder. If they were plastic, it very very
     likely caused mold problem as raised by Delta Wave.

I play my LPs wet for sensible reasons:-

(1) Me being a cheapskate, my LPs are mostly heapie preowned. So wet play does eliminate effectively surface noises due to worn out tracks & visible minor needle scratches.
(2) my picky ears find wet play makes music sound more FLUID & more ENGAGING.
(3) with minute traces of moisture in the tracks, statics are eliminated & so I seldom
need to use my cleaning brush at all as very seldomly dusts get attracted to them.

c-J

[drjjpdc]

OK, I am tired of beating a dead horse, so I contacted some experts on the web regarding this issue of playing records wet. Some of these sites may like cleaning with a machine or by hand, that is up to you. The last site on the bottom is from the Library of Congress Preservation Dept. They even have a free recipe for a cleaner. Note they dry their software before storage/playing. I guess they should know what's best.

Hello John,

It is never recommended to do this. Is there are reason you would want to do this? What kind of liquid are you referring to?

Best Regards,

Michael Fajen
Service Manager
Musical Surroundings
5662 Shattuck Ave
Oakland, CA 94609
510 547-5006
fax 510 547-5009
www.musicalsurroundings.com
mike@musicalsurroundings.com

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Dear Mr. Pluta:

Until I received your email I never heard of such a thing.  Here are several thoughts on the subject.

1.   Water and electronics do not mix.
2.   With a wet record, the stylus is probably hydroplaning and not correctly riding in the record grooves.  That would severely affect frequency response of the cartridge and probably would not do the record any good.
3.   Unless the liquid of choice was an ultrapure liquid like a record cleaner specifically designed to leave no residue, you probably would leave a whole lot of contaminants on the record.
4.   The liquid would ultimate ruin your cartridge.

It is a bad idea all around in my opinion.

Sincerely,


JAMES W. WALKER
Service Manager
P 330.686.2600 ext. 2700
F 330.686.6277
Audio-Technica U.S., Inc.
1221 Commerce Drive, Stow, Ohio 44224

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

http://www.discomusic.com/101-more/6193_0_7_0_C/

http://www.artsandmedia.com/lpclean.html

http://www.loc.gov/preservation/care/record.html

[cheap-Jack]

Dear Mr. Pluta:

Until I received your email I never heard of such a thing.  Here are several thoughts on the subject.

1.   Water and electronics do not mix.
2.   With a wet record, the stylus is probably hydroplaning and not correctly riding in the record grooves.  That would severely affect frequency response of the cartridge and probably would not do the record any good.
3.   Unless the liquid of choice was an ultrapure liquid like a record cleaner specifically designed to leave no residue, you probably would leave a whole lot of contaminants on the record.
4.   The liquid would ultimate ruin your cartridge.

It is a bad idea all around in my opinion.

Sincerely,

So the answers were given as "thoughts" basing on hearsays & speculations, not on actual experience like mine which has already been for many years on my many many hundreds of LPs, 80% are classicals. If you believe in such 'rumours', be my guest.

(1) Wet playing is mechanical, nothing to do with electronics.
(2) My MM cartridge tracks my wet play vinyls  perfectly. FYI, my Thorens TT comes
     with anti-skating scale for both WET & dry play. Thorens new model got
     awarded 'European Turtable of 2010-2011'. So Thorens knows how to make good
     TTs.
(3) Yes, therefore I only only use ozonated steam distilled water to wet play, No no
     chemical ever added. So no residues.
(4) Wrong again. My MM cartridge get NO, repeat no, sign of any
     physical damage nor any detoriation of sound quality from Pavarotti to the Beatles
     after many years of wet play.

Check up my posts on the same object in "Time to spill your cleaning secrets" of the same vinyl forum above:-  Nov 14, Replay 163 & the scroll down.

My question is: Why comment on hearsays & speculation WITHOUT first try it out????
Like many many out there, I was extremely skeptical when I first tried WET play years back after reading all those negative comments on it. But to my surprise, it works wonders, specularly to old used vinyls which I collected tons from thift stores.
It makes the music sound so much more FLUID & more ENGAGING.Now I can't go back to dry play where I first started vinyl play years back. I'm glad I have chosen wet play as it sound far superior over dry play.

c-J
     
     

[drjjpdc]

Cheap, I am not trying to fight with you, only to protect the unsuspecting newbies from your hearsay and speculative practices. I notice you conveniently left out the credentials of the experts that I consulted, and yours as well. Sorry but for me service managers of high quality equipment, trump your opinions (no insult intended) as does the LoC preservation department.

In a nutshell:

One service manager from a well respected High End Company, Musical Surroundings, that obviously only sells junk like Clearaudio, Benz Micro, Helius and Graham. And another from a company that makes cartridges. The first manager said flat out, " It is never recommended to do this." The second admitted that, "he had never heard of such a thing and said the liquid would ultimately ruin your carttridge." Lastly, you blew off the Library of Congress, possibly the premier organization with knowledge about what is good and bad for software! 

You are the one that added "hearsay and speculations." Also your many hundreds of LP's don't hold that much water (sorry) with me since I have about 4,000 LP's. If anyone else is still confused, they can easily contact, Graham, Micro Benz, Clearaudio, VPI, Walker and any other high end manufacturer of TT, Tonearms and Phono Cartridges that they care to. I would love to hear from other real experts in the field, although I would be surprised to hear any of them agree with C-J, but things are always possible.

One last thing C-J, you keep saying over and over that most of your records are obtained from yard sales and other cheap venues and that fluid makes them sound better. Do you have any quality LP's and have you brought them over a friend's house with good equipment? Have you also brought your wet LP's over to hear how they sound on a different system?

[midfi]

I may be making a false assumption but I think the OP and those that followed were more concerned about paper scratching or having dry paper particles damaging the record surface.+
yes sir, that was part of my original intent along with everyones thoughts and why one material would be superior to the other...

[drjjpdc]

Thank you mid I thought as much. Take my recommendations as guides for your own judgement. I also hope your listening area never floods like mine did. If you are in a basement, make sure you have a sump pump and elevating your equipment and software at least a few inches would not be a bad idea. Have an enjoyable holiday season.

If you like jazz piano, I can suggest a great CD. Dave McKenna's Christmas album. If you don't know Dave, this is a great opportunity. He was in the vein of Tatum and Peterson in that he had a left hand like a trip hammer and could play like an orchestra. He always referred to himself as a saloon pianist but he was far more.

http://www.amazon.com/Christmas-Party-Holiday-Piano-Spiked/dp/B00004WJZX

[drjjpdc]

Since I did not include any LP processing experts, here is one last reference. RTI is one of the premier processing plants in the world.

Hi John,
Thank you for the kind comments.  We put our all into pressing our records and are proud of the results (usually....) As far as playing records wet.... I also have known people that swear by this.  It does reduce the surface noise and pops & clicks, etc.  I'm not sure, however, what it does to the dynamic range.  People that do this seem to also have a high rate of stylus loss.  My suspicion is that the water loosens the adhesive that holds the diamond to the cantilever of the stylus prematurely and it is easily dislodged.  Definitely not my recommendation.
A good record cleaner will usually give great results on older, not too abused, records.

Thanks for your email.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you too!
Viva la Vinyl!!
Rick
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
First I just wanted you guys to know how happy I am with all my RTI LP's. I have never had to return a single one!
Second my question. I am in the NJ Audio Society and although I am not a genius, I am not a dummy either. One of my aquaintances (not a club member), tells me he plays his LP's wet and dries them after playing. He admits to having a lot of yard sale records with scratches, pops and ticks. I have contacted a few people and no one thinks this is a good idea. I thought I might as well ask the experts that make LP's.

Thanks in advance and Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
John
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Lastly it is obvious that noise is reduced with wet play. However there are also other problems associated with it, namely record/cartridge damage and the probability that you will always have to wet play. I know C-J has a Thorens rig (he did not mention his cart) but I have a $1000+ Micro Benz cart and I am not going to take any chances with my stylus, unless Albert Lukaschek tells me it is OK. By the same token my audiophile LP's (45 RPM, Nat King Cole Story, Blue Note reissues, etc.) are too valuable to experiment with. But I am just disagreeing with C-J in principle using logic and other experts opinions. Anyone here is free to experiment with you software and equipment.

[Sonny]

I think so.  I prefer the MOFI sleeves...

[cheap-Jack]

(1) I notice you conveniently left out the credentials of the experts that I consulted, and yours as well...
(2) You are the one that added "hearsay and speculations."
(3) Also your many hundreds of LP's don't hold that much water (sorry) with me since I have about 4,000 LP's.
(4) If anyone else is still confused, they can easily contact, Graham, Micro Benz, Clearaudio, VPI, Walker and any other high end manufacturer of TT, Tonearms and Phono Cartridges that they care to. I would love to hear from other real experts in the field, although I would be surprised to hear any of them agree with C-J..

(5) Have you also brought your wet LP's over to hear how they sound on a different system?

Answers to yr comment above:-

(1) I never ever want to dispute the credentials of the parties you consulted. While they may be experts in their line of trades, but if their comments were not based on thier actual experience in wet play, whatever they quoted you were, IMO, hearsays & speculations.

(2) Any comments made not on actual experience, but simply by quotingon other parties comments, is "hearsays & speculations" to me.

(3) Many tons of vinyls one may own does not qualify such person knows wet play if he/she never WET play even on ONE single disc. Likewise, tons of vinyls one may own
does not automatically measure how much music that person loves.

(4) Those parties you quoted are manufacturers/vendors who all got commercial interet in their products. Let get real - do you think they really want to tell the consumers to WET play their vinyls, risking free warrantee repair & replacment in case their products were damaged even though they are wetness resistant. Would you??

That said, the Thorens TT, with electronic speed servo-control, got anti-skating adjustment scale for both WET & dry play. It wet plays big bigtime for years.

(5) YES. Only Oct last year, I went thru an audition of a USDF24,900 Swiss-made tube phono-preamp with other top-notched expensive brandname MC cartridg, power amps, loudspeakers, cabling etc etc in a hi-end audio boutique. I wanted to audition it as it won tons of rave appraisals worldwide. We played DRY a couple of my reference LPs I purposely brought over for this audition.

Again, these LPs have been wet played since day one I picked them up dirtcheap from a thrift store but sound excellent.

Guess what?  I was pretty gratifying as this phono-preamp sounded excellent - the best sounding phono-preamp I ever auditioned - playing DRY on my wetplayed LPs.

Again, this audition indeed blows away the well-quoted 'rumour' :- "Any vinyls once wet play would sound bad on dry play again".

Personally I don't give a rat's ass - dry or wet or however play - as long as it sound good to my ears. WET play works out for me.

c-J

[drjjpdc]

C-J,

1,2 & 3: So basically you only believe in direct experimentation, no matter the potential harm. So if someone tells you dipping your AC plug in water before it goes into the receptacle increases the highs, you (or we) should try it. And if we don't because we simply know better, then fears of electrocution or shorting damage to equipment are hearsay and speculation?

4: So if a TT, Tonearm, Cartridge manufacturer tells you not to wet play LP's because it would negatively affect his product's lifespan, unless you try it yourself, then you won't believe him? I can't begin to tell you how foolish that sounds.

5: More importantly, why is someone who gets his LP's from thrift shops, etc. auditioning a 24,900 rig? May I assume you had no intention of purchasing it? If my assumption is incorrect, did you inform the salesperson whether or not you were really interested about a purchase or just wasting his time?

I don't give a rat's ass about your equipment or LP's either. My only concern is helping newbies or the unsuspecting from harming anything in their audio chain. When you advise others not to listen to manufacturers recommendations, that is simply irrational and for me signals that this topic (between you and I) is over.

[neobop]

It's certainly understandable that entirely different approaches (wet/dry), might require different sleeves. While most people play records dry, there are a surprising number who play wet and claim good results. Some of these people are credible, with good equipment and knowledgeable.

While I play records dry and use a new MFSL sleeve after cleaning, it's not the only way, just traditional. One things for sure, everybody have a Merry Christmas.
neo

[midfi]

"If you like jazz piano, I can suggest a great CD. Dave McKenna's Christmas album. If you don't know Dave, this is a great opportunity."

Don't have that particular album/CD but I have some of his other stuff, bought whilst abroad in Germany...

[cheap-Jack]

Hi.

(1) It's certainly understandable that entirely different approaches (wet/dry), might require different sleeves. While most people play records dry, there are a surprising number who play wet and claim good results.
(2) Some of these people are credible, with good equipment and knowledgeable.
(3) While I play records dry and use a new MFSL sleeve after cleaning, it's not the only way, just traditional.
() One things for sure, everybody have a Merry Christmas.
neo

(1) Yes, I appreciate your impartial comment on wet play despite you only dry play. I wish everybody acts so impartial like you, & the world will be much more peaceful.

(2) "Good" equipment is not measured by its pricetag, but by the sound qualtiy it reproduces. So often I auditioned famous brandname equipment tagged for huge bucks, which did not impress me at all. That USD24,900 Swiss-made tube phono-preamp did impress me sonically, not because I know the owner/designer of the preamp, & we have shared our common ideas of designs.
You are right - knowledge is so important. FYI, I am an electrical engineer working in the electrical industries for over 2 decades. I still keep on reading to learn more in audio electronics & listening to love more music.

BY doing so, I think I have known enough in audio electronics design & music to keep most vendors out of my way. Sales pitches can't fool me.

FYI, I design-built probably the most simple phono-preamp (one single stage RIAA) in the world which impresses me as much as the USD24,900 Swiss-made phono-preamp if not more, considering my humble home-brew audio system cost me peanut vs those huge brandnames.

(4) Yes, all roads lead to Rome. "Traditional" or not does not matter as long as one likes the sound.

(5) Yes, happy holidays to our readers.

c-J
"If the facts do not fit the theory, change the facts." quoted Albert Einstein.