[TomS]

Part 1
I've reached the point where my single source digital/tube system is in good shape. I like it a lot, but I am always looking for that next project. I was quite inspired by "2gumby2"'s thread on the hunt for an improved TT from the Technics he had http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=99587.0 There were lots of great inputs and (mostly) useful suggestions to help him move his playback forward a notch. I stalked that thread daily and really enjoyed it, thinking about how I could go back and unlock the boxes of vinyl I still have. There was so much good and frankly, some quite bad, music sitting there unused.

Part of what made this challenging and fun, at least for me, was to see just how much performance I could get for modest money, tapping both new and used gear as needed to hit a target less than $1k. Future headroom and tweak-ability were important to me too, so the "set and forget" models were out (like Rega, Project, etc.). I also time bound it to about 30 days to control the "just a little longer" tendancy. For $1k I could see if I was ready for the vinyl rituals again and then decide whether to go further or not.

So, with the budget set at a hard limit, I wouldn't be tempted to grab the carrot and step up to those next tiers - Rega RP3, a teeny bit more, Clearaudio Concept, just a tad more, and VPI Classic and such, a whole lot more. I decided to go low with the table/arm, buying that used, and then stretch on the cartridge because I really wanted a new one. I knew I could build a decent phono stage from various public designs, but I also wanted a little immediate gratification and something ultimately tweak-able too.

After looking around a lot, I settled on the Empire 208, because they were available cheap, bulletproof, and could be tweaked beyond recognition if you wanted to invest in it. By most accounts here and elsewhere it is a decent workhorse. I scored a nice clean one, along with the 98 arm that didn't need the impossible to find headshell clip. Generally you can find one on eBay or Craigslist every so often for a couple hundred bucks in decent shape, though that seems to be going up now and there are a lot ratty ones to avoid.


For the cart, I found a new-in-box Denon DL-103R at a great price (no, NOT Comet Supply). I've owned a few 103's over the years and they've served me well. QC is excellent on them since they were for broadcast use. Plus, it was a good fit for the heavy Empire arm and the MC phono stages I had in mind. It can also be tweaked with various wood, aluminum bodies, etc by Soundsmith, Zu, et al. Nothing like the Zyx Airy3 or Shelter I had at one point, but decent enough for this project.

The phono stage was a tough one. I am a DIY'er to the core, so some day that will happen, but I needed something affordable now. Nothing used seemed to pop up. There were several good threads here with the same goal. I really wanted Boris' AudioVista AC special but there was a bit too much lead time. I looked at the Firestone Audio Korora, Clearaudio Nano, Cambridge 640p, etc. Nothing good came up used during my search or, if it did, it was gone before I pulled the trigger. Ultimately I settled to buy a Jolida JD9 brand new from the factory and it was air shipped to my doorstep in 3 days at a great price. There are many threads on tweaking it, here and elsewhere. More on that later.

I spent a couple of weeks on those 3 pieces and still had about $150 left over from my initial budget. I bought a new digital scale good to .01g ($10), new belt ($20), new rubber motor mounts ($25), litz headshell leads ($15) and some big o-ring belts for the platter rim, a la Oracle/Nottingham, for a whopping $15. With what was left I bought pcb's and parts for a killer DIY MC phono stage.

Here it is all set up in my rack and ready to go. Mission accomplished and spinning away!

[TomS]

Part 2
Overall it sounded quite good right out of the box though I really have no baseline reference other than my digital rig. Nonetheless I am quite happy with it. I started out with the venerable Jolida JD9. I also built the RJM Audio PhoneClone3 version of the 47 Labs PhonoCube for the low output DL-103R. It has totally dual mono boards with very nice onboard shunt regulated dual power supplies. It went together in a couple of hours with standard parts for under $100. Using just the basic OPA37 op amps and even without a metal case, it smoked the stock Jolida. I was quite shocked at the difference, dead quiet, plenty of gain, and sounded terrific. Simpler is better. I intended to tweak the JD9 but now as I look at the circuit I'm not so sure I want to invest more in it. I now have another Peter Daniel version of the 47 Labs clone underway that uses very fancy parts, and is also totally dual mono, including the shunt regulated power supplies. I'll see where that one lands.



A previous owner damped the plinth somewhat, but the stock Empire platter has a ring that could be used to summon kids to dinner from a mile away. At least 30 seconds worth. Rather than squirt goo, putty, and such in there and ruin the balance, I decided to try an old reversible tweak that goes back to the Oracle and Nottingham tables and is in vogue for Garrard 301's, Thorens 124's, Reko's, etc.  I bought some Nitrile O-Rings from McMaster-Carr for $15. Four 1/4" x 9 3/4" ones went inside the rim and three 3/16" x 11" ones outside the rim of the platter. It's probably not to the extreme of the Atma-Sphere modded platter, but it's suitably dead with the stock mat on, responding to a finger strike with a deep "thunk". It sounds quite good now. Those Oracle guys were pretty darn smart don't you think?





Next up, I have a new thrust plate and grinding kit provided courtesy of "BaMorin" to smooth out the bearing and shaft. I'm looking forward to those improvements too.

So far, so good!

[roscoeiii]

Looks great Tom.

If you are looking to poke around for vinyl in Chicago this weekend, I'd recommend the following:

Jazz Record Mart (downtown; genres: jazz, duh)
Reckless Records (3 locations, incl 1 downtown on Madison; genres: rock, alternative, hip-hop, punk, metal)
Dusty Groove (a bit removed from downtown, near Wicker Park; genres: soul, R&B, jazz, some hip-hop & rock but not much)
Permanent Records (a very indie strore near the restaurant A Tavola I recommended in another thread; genres: pretty indie and experimental, but some classic rock and other vinyl too)
Hyde Park Records (Hyde Park, my neighborhood; genres: also strong on soul, jazz and rock. Also a solid classical collection, a ton of $1 bargain bin titles, though they are not organized in any way)
MusicDirect (West Loop, an unmarked warehouse so look up the address but they have used vinyl in addition to the tons of new stuff on their website; near the Publican restaurant I'd recommended)

Also, IIRC, doug s here is a big Empire fan. Might want to see what tips he has for those tables.

[TONEPUB]

looking good!  enjoy....

[TomS]

Looks great Tom.

If you are looking to poke around for vinyl in Chicago this weekend, I'd recommend the following:

Jazz Record Mart (downtown; genres: jazz, duh)
Reckless Records (3 locations, incl 1 downtown on Madison; genres: rock, alternative, hip-hop, punk, metal)
Dusty Groove (a bit removed from downtown, near Wicker Park; genres: soul, R&B, jazz, some hip-hop & rock but not much)
Permanent Records (a very indie strore near the restaurant A Tavola I recommended in another thread; genres: pretty indie and experimental, but some classic rock and other vinyl too)
Hyde Park Records (Hyde Park, my neighborhood; genres: also strong on soul, jazz and rock. Also a solid classical collection, a ton of $1 bargain bin titles, though they are not organized in any way)
MusicDirect (West Loop, an unmarked warehouse so look up the address but they have used vinyl in addition to the tons of new stuff on their website; near the Publican restaurant I'd recommended)

Also, IIRC, doug s here is a big Empire fan. Might want to see what tips he has for those tables.

Thanks for all the recommendations. I'll see if I can work something in while I'm there this weekend!

[TheChairGuy]

Tom!

Dual Mono is soooo beneficial to getting closer to the very best vinyl experience I've found, too.  Stereo separation is notable worse than digital in that regard....any preservation of the precious little it has makes dual mono far more beneficial for vinyl than with digital.

Keep plugging away 

[Wayner]

I would reconsider replacing the Empire mat. I have found that the edge suspension of the record is most beneficial in reducing platter noise. This is the same style mat used on my Empire 598 and if you will notice, the very outer edge of the mat is the only surface that comes into contact with the record. There is a higher ridge for the 10" and 7" 45s, too.

If you don't want the mat, I'll take it.......

Wayner

[TomS]

I wasn't really worried about the mat for the moment. Though quite old, my collection is a little short on 7" and 10" anyway 

[bpape]

Great thread - thanks. Been thinking along the same lines.

Bryan

[rockets63]

Hi Tom,

Using the O-rings for damping is brilliant. Have you tried the inside rim and outside ones separately to see which makes the greater difference? Could you please share the exact model #s that you purchased from McMaster Carr.

Thanks, John




A previous owner damped the plinth somewhat, but the stock Empire platter has a ring that could be used to summon kids to dinner from a mile away. At least 30 seconds worth. Rather than squirt goo, putty, and such in there and ruin the balance, I decided to try an old reversible tweak that goes back to the Oracle and Nottingham tables and is in vogue for Garrard 301's, Thorens 124's, Reko's, etc.  I bought some Nitrile O-Rings from McMaster-Carr for $15. Four 1/4" x 9 3/4" ones went inside the rim and three 3/16" x 11" ones outside the rim of the platter. It's probably not to the extreme of the Atma-Sphere modded platter, but it's suitably dead with the stock mat on, responding to a finger strike with a deep "thunk". It sounds quite good now. Those Oracle guys were pretty darn smart don't you think?





Next up, I have a new thrust plate and grinding kit provided courtesy of "BaMorin" to smooth out the bearing and shaft. I'm looking forward to those improvements too.

So far, so good!
[/quote]


Hi

[doug s.]

awesome, keep us posted w/thrust bearing, etc.

thx,

doug s.

[doug s.]

I would reconsider replacing the Empire mat. I have found that the edge suspension of the record is most beneficial in reducing platter noise. This is the same style mat used on my Empire 598 and if you will notice, the very outer edge of the mat is the only surface that comes into contact with the record. There is a higher ridge for the 10" and 7" 45s, too.

If you don't want the mat, I'll take it.......

Wayner

the sloping mat (supported at the edge) is also conducive to using a spindle clamp, imo.

doug s.

[TomS]

Here is what I bought from McMaster Carr though I had some extras.

9452K432   1 Pack/5   Buna-n O-ring, As568a Dash Number 376
9452K435   1 Pack/5   Buna-n O-ring, As568a Dash Number 379
9452K443   2 Pack/2   Buna-n O-ring, As568a Dash Number 449

I didn't bother trying them separately. It was only $15 and it works so nothing gained there.

[Russtafarian]

This is cool!

I'm also using the phonoclone preamp and DL103.  I power the phonoclone with +/- 18VDC SLA batteries and the DL103 has the Soundsmith ruby cantilever and line stylus. I like how the stock phonoclone circuit values are tuned for the DL103's gain and impedance. 

This is quite the spine-tingling cart/preamp combo for those of us who don't mind slinging a little solder. 

Russ

[TomS]

This is cool!

I'm also using the phonoclone preamp and DL103.  I power the phonoclone with +/- 18VDC SLA batteries and the DL103 has the Soundsmith ruby cantilever and line stylus. I like how the stock phonoclone circuit values are tuned for the DL103's gain and impedance. 

This is quite the spine-tingling cart/preamp combo for those of us who don't mind slinging a little solder. 

Russ

I also built the Peter Daniel interpretation of the 47 Labs PhonoCube, but modernized with OPA627/OPA637 IC's, CuTF copper V-Caps, Texas Components TX2575 resistors, and dual mono shunt regulated power supplies. I'm still tinkering with it, but yes, it's a great match for the Denon DL103R I have now. The stock Jolida is not even close to either of these, though this hot rod version cost more just in parts so really pushing the $1k

[Berndt]

Curious what might be "ground" in relation to your spindle or thrust bearing.
Does your bearing have bronze bushes or is it solid cast iron?
Is the armature or your motor silver or gold?
Congratulations on joining the empire camp. You have a leg up on a lot of people entering the vinyl fray. The table can justify a much nicer arm.
Have a good base and mounting location will benefit.
Try stp in your spindle.

[TomS]

Curious what might be "ground" in relation to your spindle or thrust bearing.
Does your bearing have bronze bushes or is it solid cast iron?
Is the armature or your motor silver or gold?
Congratulations on joining the empire camp. You have a leg up on a lot of people entering the vinyl fray. The table can justify a much nicer arm.
Have a good base and mounting location will benefit.
Try stp in your spindle.

Bill,

I'm not sure I know how to answer those questions, but I could shoot some naked pics to learn 

I definitely have a plan for an arm too 

Tom

[Berndt]

There have been a few different iterations of the 208, only have seen one with the bushed spindle and silver armature. My 498 motor is a silver armature and I believe the the silver armature and bushed spindle are of a later manufacture.
I've used dynamat on the platters to this effect. I also have a chassis plate drilled for a rb-250/300 that is not being used.