[kudoosamod]

Which preamp you think is better - audio reasearch or EAR912 ?

[cheap-Jack]

Hi.

First off, let me tell you who the hack I am - a very musically oriented audio DIYer.

I am not here to tell which of the 2 sounds better or not as I've not auditioned the Sty Pd 9,999.5 EAR912 though I've auditioned quite a few ARC pre-amps which, so far sorry to say, I am yet to be impressed. Why? Way to much gain.

It seems most, if not all, those brandname phono-preamps, regardless of price,
are designed with the old school conventional wisdom - add too many active stages. In case you don't know, GAIN is needed in any amps, but too much gain kills it musically. BUT not many preamp desginers know this as most of them, if not all, test their products depending on measurement, neglecting their sonic performance via the ears.

Quoting a critic's report of EAR912, "A downside of the VERY high GAIN of the 912's phonostage is a reduced overload margin...". See, this USD15,628 phono-preamp also falls into the same design trap - way to many active stage (using 5x7DJ8 twin-triode tubes). So I'd expect this expensive phono-preamp would sound similar like ACRs - not enough headroom to express the music.

I auditoned a USD24,900 Swiss-made brandname tube phono-preamp which got tons of raving appraisals from critics worldwide, with top-notched equipment in a hi-end audio boutique. I was quite impressed except again, its gain in its MC phonostage is way way to high.

MY question is: Why so far not a single commercial designer of phono-preamps can come up with a preamp of just right gain to deliver the music right??????

I think only we DIYers can design-build a phono-preamp with just right gain to deliver the music right. Why? No commercial conisderations & restrictions.

FYI, I successfully upgraded my 50-year-old stock Dynaco PAS-2 into a superb sounding phono-preamp years back. How? I cut out the 2-tube tone-control/linestasge completely. I further reduced the gain of its basic 2-stage RIAA phonostage & made the linestage passive. So this 4-stage 4-tube
preamp into a 2-tube 2-active-stage phonp-preamp!

LESS gain better music - my picky music ears tell me so.


c-J

[Quiet Earth]

Man, that EAR 912 looks awfully nice . . .  Love the meters!!! I remember reading Dudley's review of it years ago now that I have re-read it again. It looks like the price has gone up a bit since then, eh?

I haven't heard either pre-amp so I can't offer an opinion, but if I had to pick one blindly I would definitely choose the 912. That one looks like a very well thought out piece of gear aimed directly at the vinyl enthusiast. Don't think I would consider it if I didn't spin any records. Also, I don't think the amount of gain would be much of an issue if the primary source was a low output MC, but you never know until you try.

[Yiangos]

Cheap_Jack , let me clarify something with my limited electronic knowledge (and my limited English ). I am using the EAR 324
in my system,which is actually the full version of the built-in phono stage in the 912 pre-amplifier.First-of-all,the 324 as-well-as-the more "simplified version built into the 912,are solid state devices.The tubes in the 912 are for the pre-amplifer only and have nothing to do with phono stage and second,both phono units are transformer based units. As for the sound,i never had any problem with it.You can cranl it up as much as you like with no overload or distortion,not something i can say with my digital front end.As for the "high gain" you can reduce it up to 12db.A manufacturer can't possibly know what pre or cartridge one is using

[Quiet Earth]

Actually, three of the tubes in the 912 are for the phono stage gain. At least that's the way I read it. Correct me if I'm wrong :

-First you have the step up transformers for MC cart gain and impedance selection
-Next you have phono stage gain provided by three 7DJ8 tubes
-Next you have a switch that can attenuate an interstage transformer by 0, 6, or 12dB.
-Then you have two more tubes for a maximum line stage gain of 12 dB
-Lastly you have output transformers for low output Z, although there is no mention of the step down ratio.

That's about as well though out as you can get for a full function phono preamp. It does use a solid state power supply though, which is fine.  Just sayin',,,,,, there are no tubes in the power supply.


Yiangos,
You already own the 324. Which line stage are you using with it?

[rollo]

kudoosamon
                     There is no best just different. The EAR has a warmer richer character. The Audio Research is brighter and neutral in comparison. The model of each matters as well.
   What amp are you using ? Do you require a phono stage ? Are you CD based or play both vinyl and CD?
   No easy answer. Synergy of components is much more important than any single piece.


charles
SMA

[Quiet Earth]

Charles,

You said the EAR is warmer and richer than the AR. That's interesting because the two reviews that I read said the EAR does not have a classic tube character to it. The Audio Research is a hybrid unit isn't it? It must be really lean and mean. Which model did you hear?

Also.... I think we know that he requires a MC phono stage since he already owns a nice one. Looks like he is checking out alternatives. (Me too! ) You're right of course about the synergy thing. It's impossible to declare which brand of anything is universally"better".

And true, it would help to know the rest of the chain - line stage, amp, speaker. Plus other sources.

[Yiangos]

Guys,my appologies.I was wrong.The 912 DOES use tubes in the phono stage.
Quiet Earth,my system is a bit old but love it.I am using the 324 with a Jeff Rowland Synergy ii.

[Occam]

kudoosamon
                     There is no best just different. The EAR has a warmer richer character. The Audio Research is brighter and neutral in comparison. The model of each matters as well.
 ...

Yes, with the EI? PCC88s that come with the EAR kit, it might well be a 'warmer' sound the the Audio Research pre (I'm not really familiar with the AR gear).

But populate the EAR preamp with some NOS Siemens PCC88s and no one would call it 'warm'. Put some classic Mullards in and the word 'treacle' might come to mind.

The big practical advantage of the EAR components (in addition to the design and implementation of the Baron d'PVC) is its ability to use either the scarce and costly NOS ECC88s or easily available NOS PCC88s. [ both the 6.3v heaters of the ECC or the 7v heaters of the PCCs are easily accommodated as the heaters are fed via a constant current source]

I run my EAR Acute III cd player with a Siemens PCC88 and a Holland Phillips(AMPEREX) Miniwatt PCC88. I've 4 pairs of them for replacements to last me about 15+ years, costing $55/pair. In 6.3v heater ECC88 guise they'd cost over $300/pair.

Regards,
Paul

[kudoosamod]

hey guys , thyanx for the replies. My system is as follows :-
Krell 750 mcx piar of monoblocks , EAR 912 preamplifier, wadia 860 cfd player, mitchell orbe turntabgle with koetsu urushi and helius omega tonearms, audioquest cables - sky inter connects and k2 speaker cables, silver audio phono cable, eggleston andra 2 speakers.
i am still striving for that warm, rich sound which i dont seem to get with this system - do you think the cables are wrong ? would you think audio research ref 5 or the anniversay would give a better sound ? or should i upgrade to a SME turntable ?

[Yiangos]

Hmmm,difficult to say.First of all,the 912 is not a "warm" sounding pre.It is accurate,without sounding clinical and with "dry" bass but not "warm".I'm no expert but i believe you could inprove it by changing cables (no recomendations here) arm (sme v works wonders with Mitchell Orbe) but i believe the thing that robs your system from the "warmth" you're looking is the Krell power amp.If you want to replace your amp with something that will keep all the good stuff of the Krell and add more "soul" to your system,go for a Plinius SA Reference.

[Yiangos]

Kudoosamod,i'm sorry if in my previous post didn't answer clearly to all your questions.Regarding the SME turntable and the Audio Research pre-amplifiers,the answer is a simple no.The sme is not a warm sounding turntable but rather a matter-of-fact sounding one.The pre-amps you mentioned are state of the art but neither are warm sounding.You allready have a nice cartridge
and as i said in my previous post,you should opt for a sme V arm wich actually isn't warm sounding but it is rich in its tonality.
I speak from experience as i own a sme 20.2 turntable with model V arm and Koetsu Urushi sky blue.Kudoosamod,i understand what you're looking for (i am looking for the same thing actually ) but the trick is to get what you want without loosing the good stuff. From your system,i'd say the equipment that are natural sounding (not necessarilly warm) are the following : wadia,
Koetsu and Eggelstonworks. Here's a few equipment you should consider. Plinius power amps,Sota turntables,Joule Electa pre,
and a certain cable i bought some time to ago out of curiosity just to try it out and it really sound amazing.the MAC (My Audio Cables) Palladium.It can really hold its own against my $2250.00 ic and it's warm sounding without loosing anything regardin resolution etc.

[jostber]

I would say that the main components in your setup regarding getting warmer sound would be to check the power amp and speakers combination. Your Eccleston speakers will need some power, so if you can try a powerful tube amp like the Audio Research VS115, this would be a quick way to verify if that works better. Your turntable, EAR preamp and other sources and cables should work very well for this combination. I use an EAR preamp with a tube power amp myself which gives a nice warm sound.

[kudoosamod]

Hey! Thanx for the replies.

[kudoosamod]

I also think the amplifier is the problem - but i am limited in what i can change - what about Manley or Ampzilla or Perreaux. I think a Manley 250 or 500watt might do the trick. The guys that do Audio research here in South africa are a bit too expensive. The guys that do manley also do sota and sme. i could also opt to change the helius to a sme 5. What about cables - which are the warm sounding cables ?
Also, do you think a dedicated phono stage will out[perform the EAR 912 OR the EAR CAN HOLD UP TO A STEELHEAD or sutherland or pass labs ? i always feel a separate linestage and phono will outperform a combo linestage with phono . how true is this ? as you can see , i am getting a bit confused right now.
also, which are the warmest sounding speakers ?

[Occam]

....
What about cables - which are the warm sounding cables ?
.....

Prior to making major changes in your system, you might consider some 'warm' sounding ICs, and/or LS cables and power cords. Something like the Cardas Quadlink 5c ICs (usually available on Audiogon used) could give you a taste of how you could subjectively tune your system.

Regards,
Paul

[jostber]

The Manley Snapper looks like serious stuff and should be quite sufficient to drive your speakers:

http://www.manley.com/msn.php

You have a set of great speakers that should perform very well, and your sources are all of high quality. Be aware that this kind of speakers(like the Vandersteens 2CEs) will need about 100-200 hours of playing before they are run in and settled with their optimal sound.

The EAR 912 preamp is a very high quality component which should also give you a great phono amplification. A dedicated phono amp will be anyway be an upgrade, especially if you get something like the Bottlehead:

http://www.bottlehead.com/store.php?crn=225&rn=429&action=show_detail

I have the Hagtech Cornet, but that you might have to build: http://www.hagtech.com/cornet2.html
You could ask Jim if he have a completed set though. EAR also have some great phono amps:
http://www.ear-yoshino.com/products.php?catId=6

Regarding the tonearm you might check the Origin Live silver which is very good value:

http://www.tonearm.co.uk/silver-tonearm.htm