[geowak]

Everyone

Just got some 2CE Sig II speakers. I am thinking about making some changes in my amp or preamp.

Listened to these on SS gear when I bought them. A very nice Musical Fidelity amp M6500i. But alas I cannot afford that amp.

My front end is a McCormack DNA-125 (stock) and my source is a Rega Apollo as transport and Benchmark USB DAC1 as preamp and DAC. Keeping it digital, not analog. I am thinking that I would do better with more current and wattage, not unlike the MF M6500i

So here is where I need help. How can I extract better sound from these speakers? (I listened to the Sig II on a Rotel amp once... new one that is a class D. It did not sound very good at all. Shrill sounding.)

Here is a short list of what I am thinking...
1) Change to a more powerful amp. Parasound 21, McCormack DNA 225 or 500
2) Keep the DNA-125, change out the Benchmark for an actual preamp, maybe a tube choice to add warmth to the sound. (nnck offered this as an idea)
3) Send the DNA-125 to SMc for an overhaul. Get it with more current and better parts.
4) Replace the DNA-125 with a quality tube amp with power, like a Audio Research Vt 100 Mk II

Can anyone else offer some advice on this? Which direction should I go? I finally got some speakers that are good, I want give them a good setup. HELP!

[dminches]

Can you give us some sense of how much you can spend, net of selling your current amp?

[geowak]

The max is 3k. That includes whatever i can get for the DNA-125. I would like to stay in the 1k to 2K range so my wife won't divorce me. Ha Ha

[dminches]

I would build this piece by piece and start with the amp.  I would get either a used Bryston or a used Modwright KWA-100 or KWA-100SE if you could swing it.  There is a KWA100SE on audiogon for 2500-2750.  I am using the KWA-150SE with my Vandersteen 5As.  They are a great match.  The Bryston 4BSST or 2BSST would be a nice match for the 2CE Sigs also.

[WGH]

Need more power you say, how about 300 watts per channel? For the money you won't find anything better than this:

For your info, I just got in a nice older 550 hybrid amp (black faceplate, captive power cord). I am planning to upgrade it to a 600R and sell with a full new AVA three year parts and labor warranty and our standard 30 day satisfaction guarantee.

Asking price $2595.  Might be within your budget,

Frank Van Alstine

A new 600R costs $3499. LINK

Be quick, I'm thinking of snatching it up myself.

Wayne

[cody69]

You have some fine speakers that you'll enjoy for some time, so don't rush into this. Since amp selection is so subjective, try to find a way to audition the amp playing Vandy's so you know what you're getting. I was fortunate to have a dealer within reasonable driving distance with a good selection of equipment that allowed me plenty of time in a sound room to make my selection. I tried a variety of tube and SS amps before selecting a 150Wpc Musical Fidelity amp to power my Vandy 2Ce Sigs. Good luck and let us know how you make out.

[jeffreybehr]

geo, I'm going to be a bit of a contrarian here, but first I have to ask just now loudly you listen.  Do you have a SPL meter?

At 'normal' levels...whatever that means...you're using probably just a few Watts of power, if even that, and at higher levels maybe 20dB more.  I've driven Audio Physic Avanti III speakers (about 89dB sensitive) with 12 WPC of SET vacuumtubed amps (Music Reference EM7-12s), and everyone who heard them was astonished at how good they sounded.  I then switched to 50-into-8 Marantz MA-22 sandamps on the top-8 octaves; the music did get a bit more dynamic but not greatly so.  I used for a few months those then-slightly-improved MA-22s on the top-8 octaves of 5As and was quite happy but then got the itch...you know, the itch that all of us suffering from audiofoolia nervosa get...and bought a quad of 30-into-8 Marantz MA-24s. 


Into the 5A's 6-to-4-Ohm impedance, the max power per amp is probably about 50, totaling about 200 Watts for 2 speakers.  I'm THRILLED at the sound quality including dynamics from these low-powered sandamps and don't want ANY more power.

I love big-orchestra Romantic-period Classical music, and my room at about 3200CF is larger than average. 

I suggest that unless you're hearing distinct harshness as a result of clipping the amp channels at maximum levels, live with what you have for months before spending lots of money to replace what most people indicate is a fine-sounding poweramp.

[Dan Driscoll]

I'm going to agree with Jeff, at least to an extent. Unless you are listening at pretty high levels or in a large room, your McCormick should be providing plenty of power.

If you don't like the sound of the McCormick, that's a different issue. But McCormick amps generally pair well with Vandersteen speakers, so I would look further upstream before I replaced the amp. Personally, I would start with the Benchmark, maybe consider trying a tube DAC. Adding a tube DAC to my rig made a major improvement.

[geowak]

You guys are giving me new ideas. Thanks. That's what I like about audiocircle.

Hey Jeff, that is a VERY nice room. Yes you are correct, I do not listen at any kind of high volume.
I had thought of a lowered power tube amp but a little afraid since I had some gear that had background spurious noise issues and hum problems. I had heard that tube gear CAN introduce noise. I like a very BLACK BACKGROUND, no other sounds.

Also I was thinking about the preamp. Someone had mentioned to just get a quality tube preamp which would warm up the DNA-125.  Not that I don't like the DNA, just looking for more current and
warmth and musical.

The reason I am looking at more power is that the dealer had the 2CE SIG connected to a high power M500ai Musical Fidelity. MF is a SS design, dual mono with a PS for each channel and the preamp. It was a very musical presentation with a black background. When he changed out to a Rega amp, the speakers did not sound nearly as good, nor did they in another configuration with a class "D", Rotel amp

So I am thinking, among many options, of getting the DNA-125 upgraded at Smc audio, or getting a DNA-500 used, or getting the Musical Fidelity at 200wpc and with lots of current.

Also will be looking at AVA Fetvalve....and Parasound A21.

The Benchmark is a very versatile DAC, which to my taste makes a good preamp. It sounds clinical, but it might be able to be warmed up??

You guys have nice gear, but keep in mind I am working with somewhat low dollars. Champagne taste on a beer budget. Ha Ha

[TONEPUB]

I used to power my 2ces with a pair of ARC classic 120's...

[TomS]

Just another idea with the amp. I used a pair of Electrocompaniet Ampliwires (each stereo) to do vertical passive biamping on the 2's at the recommendation of a local Vandy dealer way back when. Basically, a stereo amp on each side. I think they were only about 50-75wpc each. The only catch is they need to be identical to work that way.

He definitely had the right formula as that combo with an Electrocompaniet Pre-1 preamp was stellar. Quiet, grain free, it was a wonderfully musical setup that made the 2's come alive in ways I didn't know before then. Maybe another DNA is worth trying this way?

Tom

[jjc1]

Jeffrey, some nice equipment!

  Geowak, Cary amps work very nicely with Vandersteen speakers. When I was considering a pair of Quattros, my dealer setup a Cary SLI80 integrated (which I have been using at home for the last 9 years) and this little integrated worked beautifully. The SLI80 is 40 watts/channel in triode and 80 in utralinear. It drove the Quattros with no problem at all.
  The cost of the SLI80 is about $3500.

[Carl V]

I used to power my 2ces with a pair of ARC classic 120's...

My  system ("83-85) was PV5, MV-50 into 2Ci
then 1 sub, then a second MV50, then a second sub.
later became 2Ce, Mv52 upgrades. Played with Horizontal
vertical passive Bi-amp.  That same system is still going
strong.  It is now 2ce sigs as a 5,1 with MV60 added.

Tubes should do fine.

[TONEPUB]

Oh yeah, Vandersteens have always been a very easy speaker to drive with tubes...

[dminches]

I drove my old Vandersteen 2CEs with an Aragon Soundstage and an Aragon 8008x3.  That was a very nice setup, much better than my previous B&K separates.

I am now using a Modwright LS-100 and KWA-150 SE to drive my 5As.  This is a very nice combo too.

The 2CEs are the best value in speaker history.  I think I liked them more than my 3A Sigs.

[C17FXR]

Geowak
You may want to consider an active preamp as a starter.  The reason I say this is the pre in the DAC-1 is a simple passive preamp. One of the common complains about passives is the loss of bass drive.  If I were you I would consider a preamp as a starter. If you would like to hear the difference between a passive and active get a McCormack Micro Line Drive. It has an active output that's adjustable +/- 3db with a passive output as well, the -3db on the active side is just +1 db higher than the passive. Great little sleeper of a preamp to learn and experiment with that can be had for around $300 or so. You never know you might wind up vertically biamping the Vandersteens.

As a second alternative you could try the matching McCormack RLD-1 if you want to try that route. As far as the SMc upgrades they will only improve on the sound you already have. You might want to give a call to Steve or Kris and discuss your thoughts with them, they are very easy to talk to and very forth coming with advise. I have a pair of 0.5's at SMc getting the full monty monoblock conversion but currently drive my 3A Sig's with a pair of 0.5's in a vertical biamp config. Liked the sound better than with a DNA-1 Deluxe.

If the McCormack gear doesn't float your boat in the standard configuration then start piece by piece swapping out the gear until you get something that makes you happy. Just make sure you enjoy your listening along the way.   

[nrenter]

When I was considering a pair of Quattros, my dealer setup a Cary SLI80 integrated (which I have been using at home for the last 9 years) and this little integrated worked beautifully. The SLI80 is 40 watts/channel in triode and 80 in utralinear. It drove the Quattros with no problem at all.

Was this a custom SLI-80? The Quatros require first-order crossovers before the amplification stage, and there is not a pre-amp out / amp in option on the SLI-80. Some integrated manufacturers will drop in some caps in the signal path to facilitate the use of Quatros (for example, Ayre will do this in their AX-7e), but it's custom config that commits you to the Quatros (or at least the Vandersteen line).

Back to the OP's concern...The DNA-125 is a fine amp, and of all your other equipment, it's probably the last piece I'd dump (particularly mated with the 2ce Sig II's). With only considering the equipment / factors listed, I'd also point toward the "pre-amp".

[geowak]

Thanks for all the input thus far..

I have talked to Chris at SMc Audio about the McCormack options. He likes the idea of upgrading the DNA-125 to something like a gold option. He said it would make a dramatic difference, even without the addition of the Plitron transformer.

I am intrigued by all the comments regarding adding a good preamp. I wonder how a very good integrated would work as well. I am setting up a demo with my dealer to hear the my stock DNA-125 next to his Musical Fidelity M6i. The M6i has a dual mono design and seperate preamp all in one box. It puts out about 200wpc and seems to have enough current. It will be interesting to see how it sounds compared to the DNA-125.

I would like to try the lower to mid powered tube amps, but would not know where to start. I know there are some chinese made ones that are getting alot of attention-
Eastern Electric Minimax, Jolida, Vincent, Grant Fidelity, Cayin, Fountek, etc. And the I know there are many who like the AVA for hybrid products.

I am going to look at the ARC and Cary, but I think they will be out of my price range. I will also look at the Electrocompanient. Lastly I will start also investigating the active preamps like the McCormack. I just REALLY don't like any gear that adds noise to the signal. Or even an amp that introduces noise. That is one thing I liked about the Musical Fidelity integrated amp, is there was no background noise that I could hear.

One last thing..has anyone tried bi amping with a 5 channel amp?

[jjc1]

Was this a custom SLI-80? The Quatros require first-order crossovers before the amplification stage, and there is not a pre-amp out / amp in option on the SLI-80. Some integrated manufacturers will drop in some caps in the signal path to facilitate the use of Quatros (for example, Ayre will do this in their AX-7e), but it's custom config that commits you to the Quatros (or at least the Vandersteen line).

Back to the OP's concern...The DNA-125 is a fine amp, and of all your other equipment, it's probably the last piece I'd dump (particularly mated with the 2ce Sig II's). With only considering the equipment / factors listed, I'd also point toward the "pre-amp".

Was this a custom SLI-80? The Quatros require first-order crossovers before the amplification stage, and there is not a pre-amp out / amp in option on the SLI-80. Some integrated manufacturers will drop in some caps in the signal path to facilitate the use of Quatros (for example, Ayre will do this in their AX-7e), but it's custom config that commits you to the Quatros (or at least the Vandersteen line).

Back to the OP's concern...The DNA-125 is a fine amp, and of all your other equipment, it's probably the last piece I'd dump (particularly mated with the 2ce Sig II's). With only considering the equipment / factors listed, I'd also point toward the "pre-amp".

Cary will make the adjustment for a nominal fee (about$170).

[nrenter]

Cary will make the adjustment for a nominal fee (about$170).

I figured as such, but just wanted to make that point clear to other who may not be aware such a mod is necessary for the Quatros and an integrated amp.

It puts out about 200wpc and seems to have enough current.

I get the impression you think power and "current" are making a the differences you hear (or will hear). In all actuality, you use far fewer "Watts" than you think. I know several 2 Ce Sig II owners that use an Ayre AX-7e (that puts out a whopping 60 watts per channel continuous into 8 ohms, 120 watts per channel continuous into 4 ohms). Unless you drive your system at earth-shaking volumes, 10 Watts are all that's probably ever used. It's the design that you (mostly) hear.

Also, if you directly drive your DNA-125 and compare it an integrated (with a properly-designed, buffered input) the primary difference you hear isn't going to be the amplifier sections of the chain.

One last thing..has anyone tried bi amping with a 5 channel amp?

While some people bi-amp their Vandersteens (and even claim success when doing so), it's not recommended. Bi-wiring, yes. Bi-amping, no. This is because of the crossover design. A first-order high-pass filter is essentially just a single capacitor, and driving some amps into a pure capacitive load can send those amps into oscillation. You'd be better off (IMHO) spending money on one higher-quality amp rather than two lesser-quality amps.