Capacitance & performance

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 5784 times.

SoundGame

Capacitance & performance
« on: 16 Nov 2011, 06:24 pm »
I've seen marketing materials from other amplifier manufacturers highlight the capacitance of their amplifiers.  Some having substantially higher total capacitance then my 4B/SST2 but with much lower power ratings.  They also have SE versions that seem to just increase the capacitance but with no real increase in power output.  What gives here?
 
Does just adding additional capacitors (higher overall capacitance) improve the performance of an amplifier, if everything else is held the same?  In other words, if you would take a 4B-SST/2 -leave everything the same other than doubling the capacitance by adding twice as many of the same capacitors, would there be any nominal increase in performance?  If so, how would this performance increase manifest itself - greater dynamics, smoother power delivery?? 
 
My understanding is that the 4B/SST2 uses 8 x 5600uf capacitors a side (44,800uf) for a total of 89600 uf and has an associated power output of 300 wpc into 8 ohms and 500 wpc into 4 ohms.  A competitor claims 90,000uf total capacitance for their standard model and 180,000uf in their SE version of the same amp but the power output rating is only 110 wpc/8ohms and 200 wpc/4ohms and the SE edition only raises power output by 10 wpc (so no real significance on output power).  What's the benefit?
 
 
« Last Edit: 16 Nov 2011, 07:56 pm by SoundGame »

srb

Re: Capacitance & performance
« Reply #1 on: 16 Nov 2011, 06:46 pm »
You might also ask the question to Bryston owners who have compared the 14BSST stereo amp with the 7BSST monoblocks.  Beyond the separate chassis, my understanding is the only other difference is the double capacitance.
 
Steve

SoundGame

Re: Capacitance & performance
« Reply #2 on: 16 Nov 2011, 06:53 pm »
You might also ask the question to Bryston owners who have compared the 14BSST stereo amp with the 7BSST monoblocks.  Beyond the separate chassis, my understanding is the only other difference is the double capacitance.
 
Steve

The 14 and 7 capacitors are actually different - not the same type/model - but yes the 7B has greater capacitance and seems to perform better - snappier.  Another post stated the following:
 
"The 14BSST differs from the 7BSST in powersupply. At the 7BSST they use more smaller capacitor's together and they are close to the output section. That makes a fast powersupply. The 14BSST use 4 big capacitors instead of 16 small ones in the 7BSST. The 14BSST use 4x 27000MFD per amplfier. That makes 108000 MFD per channel instead of 160000 MFD for the 7BSST.
Also the 14BSST have a slightly lower powersuply voltage, 60 volts +/- isntead of 65 volts +/- for the 7BSST."

« Last Edit: 16 Nov 2011, 08:02 pm by SoundGame »

Æ

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 859
Re: Capacitance & performance
« Reply #3 on: 16 Nov 2011, 08:00 pm »
Does just adding additional capacitors (higher overall capacitance) improve the performance of an amplifier, if everything else is held the same?  In other words, if you would take a 4B-SST/2, leaving everything the same but doubling the capacitance by just adding twice as many of the same capacitors, would there be any nominal increase in performance?

First off, you have to understand what all that capacitance is for, what it does. You plug your amp into an AC wall outlet which supplies power for your amplifier, but it has to be converted into DC first. That is accomplished by the amplifiers power supply. With linear supplies, a step down transformer lowers the AC voltage which is then rectified into DC, but not very smooth DC. A large bank of filter capacitors then smooths the ripple.
How much percentage of ripple are you willing to accept? Well, it kind of depends on how much capacitance you are willing to devote to the power supply. At some point you get diminishing returns and adding additional capacitance doesn't gain you anything.

Power supply regulation is as important, necessary for good amplifier performance too. Some amplifiers employ elaborate filters and regulation, but it all adds up in size, cost.

If your power supply sags and surges, cannot supply enough smoothing, then add more capacitance. You have to test bench the amplifier under dynamic (real world) conditions.
Personally I think a good hunk of transformer is more important than a massive bank of filter capacitors.

SoundGame

Re: Capacitance & performance
« Reply #4 on: 16 Nov 2011, 10:15 pm »
What is the power output rating on the torroidal transformers on the 4B squared?

Teyry

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 47
Re: Capacitance & performance
« Reply #5 on: 17 Nov 2011, 01:46 am »
looks like someone may be debating between the Bryston 4B-SST2 & the Modwright KWA100se ?

I've been looking over those numbers myself for some time now. decision, decisions, decisions.....

rofo

Re: Capacitance & performance
« Reply #6 on: 17 Nov 2011, 01:50 pm »

SoundGame

Re: Capacitance & performance
« Reply #7 on: 17 Nov 2011, 03:46 pm »
looks like someone may be debating between the Bryston 4B-SST2 & the Modwright KWA100se ?

I've been looking over those numbers myself for some time now. decision, decisions, decisions.....

Comparing more than debating.  I've heard the ModWright gear and liked it but love my 4B-SST/2.  It's just that I've had a hard time understanding their specs vs. the Bryston amps.

Sasha

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 559
Re: Capacitance & performance
« Reply #8 on: 17 Nov 2011, 11:56 pm »
Does just adding additional capacitors (higher overall capacitance) improve the performance of an amplifier, if everything else is held the same?  In other words, if you would take a 4B-SST/2 -leave everything the same other than doubling the capacitance by adding twice as many of the same capacitors, would there be any nominal increase in performance?  If so, how would this performance increase manifest itself - greater dynamics, smoother power delivery?? 
I have done exactly that on a number of amps eons ago (have not tried on Bryston), replaced transformer, capacitors, rectifiers, the performance improvement was quite obvious.

SoundGame

Re: Capacitance & performance
« Reply #9 on: 18 Nov 2011, 01:10 am »
Hmmm, could a customer order a special order Bryston amp with double the capacitance?  Would this make any difference?  I know the 4B-SST/2 uses 5600uf caps - could these be substitued with larger caps during manufacturing and if so, would there be any nominal difference? 
I'm guessing not, since Bryston is not doing it, it doesn't and for the additional cost it may make sense to move up the chain but it would be interesting to know if this was tried and what the results were.

tim92gts

Re: Capacitance & performance
« Reply #10 on: 18 Nov 2011, 04:32 pm »
The Bryston power supply is pretty adequate already.
I'm on the end of a long rural line with a very noisy
mains feed.
My last amps really suffered at times, especially when there was an arc welder running.

Since the Brystons arrived we've had no interference from the mains.

SoundGame

Re: Capacitance & performance
« Reply #11 on: 18 Nov 2011, 04:41 pm »
The Bryston power supply is pretty adequate already.
I'm on the end of a long rural line with a very noisy
mains feed.
My last amps really suffered at times, especially when there was an arc welder running.

Since the Brystons arrived we've had no interference from the mains.

Good to hear, though, in your case I'm sure that a Torus/BIT would do WONDERS for you!  Cheers.
 
P.S. What Bryston amps are you currently running?

Anonamemouse

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1058
  • +52° 03' 30", +4° 32' 45"
Re: Capacitance & performance
« Reply #12 on: 18 Nov 2011, 08:10 pm »
Hmmm, could a customer order a special order Bryston amp with double the capacitance?  Would this make any difference?  I know the 4B-SST/2 uses 5600uf caps - could these be substitued with larger caps during manufacturing and if so, would there be any nominal difference? 
I'm guessing not, since Bryston is not doing it, it doesn't and for the additional cost it may make sense to move up the chain but it would be interesting to know if this was tried and what the results were.
Now there is a nice 50th anniversary version...

tim92gts

Re: Capacitance & performance
« Reply #13 on: 21 Nov 2011, 12:23 pm »

Good to hear, though, in your case I'm sure that a Torus/BIT would do WONDERS for you!  Cheers.
 
P.S. What Bryston amps are you currently running?

Hi,
using a pair of 14BSST2s at the moment, they really seem to cope with the poor supply well.
Even when the lights flicker the music keeps on going!