[Merle]

I have been an avid audiophille for close to thirty years. I've owned more set-up's than I can remember. Some of these were downright expensive. [think full Naim system, Audible Illusions, C-J, ARC, ect, ect] With each system, I always found SOMETHING that really bugged me, leading me to swap something out for something else. In other words, the never ending downward audio sprial so many of us seem to fall victim to. I think part of this was due to audio magazines. Every month, there it was... something new and exciting! For the first time since I can remember, I now have no desire to upgrade anything in my main system. I have sold off all the extra gear that was around the house. How did a hard core audiophille finally find audio bliss your asking? I went cheap. That's right, cheap. I have a system now that makes music sound better than any other set-up I've owned and the total retail price of this system is only $3350, less cables and interconnects. I know three grand is still a lot of money to a lot of people [including me] but in the world of audio gear, it's cheap. The following gear makes up this system.

JOLIDA 502B: What can I say? At a little over a grand new, this amp has seen off a seperate c-j system, a c-j CAV50, an AVA set-up, and too many others to mention. Not the last word in any area. What is does do, and do very well, is make music. It is clean, detailed, has solid bass, and is reliable and easy to tweek and work on.

ROTEL RCD991AE: A dream of a player. This ended up replacing my Naim CD3.5/Flatcap set-up. Is it a better player than the Naim? No, it isn't. Again what is does do is make sweet music. It is the polar opposite of the Naim gear. It is as "laid back" as a player can get. With the Classical and Acoustic music I like, it sounds fantastic.

REALISTIC TUNER: Modified by the fine folks at Antenna Research. If you are into FM, do not spend big bucks on a Magnum Dynalab or such. Go to the Antenna Research website and purchase one of their modded 70's analog tuners. You will save major bucks and you will not be dissapointed. At night, using a Magnum Dynalab whip antenna, I pick up more stations than I know what to do with AND they sound fantastic. Highly recommended!

SHAMROCK AUDIO KEELIN SPEAKERS: Mike McCall knows how to make excellent sounding, extreamly well balanced loudspeakers. He now offers two models under a grand, way under a grand. I should also mention they are beautiful in a lovingly, hand crafted way. If you want a beautiful loudspeaker that sounds even better than it looks, contact Mike. They are worth the wait. Again, highly recommended.

SIGNAL CABLE: All power cords, interconnects and speaker cable in this system is made by Signal Cable. Again, great sound, low price.

The point of this LONG post is hopefully to encourage budding audiophiles into understanding the fact that they DO NOT HAVE TO SPEND LARGE SUMS OF MONEY to have truely excellent systems. It took me years to learn this simple fact. If I can save anyone the expense and frustration I went thru then I'm a happy guy. Seek out the manufactures that offer exceptional value. Paying five grand for a preamp is just silly, unless your unto the cost of gear instead of the music. End of rant.

[Tbadder1]

I couldn't agree with your premise more.  I've not been involved in the audiophile stuff nearly as long as you, but I've been reviewing music for 15 years now, and I care deeply about the quality of sound, both intrinsically and artfully.  And I'm beginning to suspect that the gear that gives me the most pleasure is really the inexpensive gear in a modest setting.  I just like my bedroom system more than the ultra/mega systems I've heard.  Sure my modest, even cheap, system comes up short in ever measure, but it gets out of the way of the music in a way that really expensive gear doesn't.  I know that sounds backwards, I know I'll have people accusing me of sacriledge, and I can't quantify it; maybe it's the feeling of listening to muscians rather than listening to really great gear.  Don't get me wrong, I adore great gear.  I adore the next best thing.  But when I content myself with checking the pleasure of the listening experience it's always more satisfying on my cheap set up. maybe because it's in the bedroom!

Total retail of my cheap-o system: 1825 smackers including all cabling and power conditioner. Add a DVD/SACD player and system soars to $4425.

[brucegel]

Thank you for your post.Notice how many folks are weighing in on this subject?The reason why so few comment on it is because most audiophiles or so called folks really have no idea what they are looking for or hearing for and are like ripe berries on a vine fresh for the plucking by whatever manufacturer claims to have.Thanks for the insights

[PTC]

How do I find Antenna Research website Thanks

[shload]

http://www.antennaperformance.com/

[Merle]

Antenna Performance is correct, my mistake. I've owned two tuners tweeked by these guys and both have proven exceptional in both performance and sound quality. These guys know their stuff!

[mcrespo71]

I think some flat earth audios are beginning to be born.  My GF's inexpensive system- Rega Brio, CAL DX-2, Audioquest entry level cabling, and Sound Dynamics RTS-3- is probably more enjoyable to listen to than my big system, at least for rock. It's certainly not better, but my system has become so resolving that I'm getting unwanted details and BS recording techniques (weird reverb, etc.) that get in the way of the musical message.  If given the choice, I'd rather hear the music rather than all the "gee whiz" recording acoustics that take me away from just listening to tunes.

I totally agree with what is being said here.

Michael

[Dmason]

Look, for example, at the run on the little, cheap but deadly-excellent sounding, $99 Tripath PowerWave, and then its tremendous synergy with single driver, crossover-less speaker systems. SET-like sound with silicon kick, all in a box the size of a pack of smokes...Less is always more, in audio and in nature, it seems.

 I have been evolving into very simple, inexpensive, but well researched solutions for audio at home, and the sonics are ever improving. Low power digital amps generate less RFI and therefore the highs do NOT suffer as they can with the higher powered ones. Open baffle designs with quality, low cost coaxial speakers yield a virtual "sound bubble" that hangs in the room, to stunning effect. Simple, non-filtered 16 bit DACs which pass on more information than I thought Redbook CD's were capable of containing. Total investment is under a grand. I am listening intently, more than ever.

[Mathew_M]

There's no longer the audiophile question of putting together a highly resolving system on the cheap.  In fact with the newest digital technology, a $300 amp is indeed more detailed than most amps costing $3000.  However I believe that the elusiveness of music reproduction is getting into the heart and soul of it.  That's where sometimes it just takes a system's synergy to get it right.  The question is do you need to spend $300 to get it or $3000.  As usual I believe the answer is somewhere in the middle.

[myoung]

I used to think you needed to spend major cash to get really good sound reproduction, until I visited a guy with a lot of money invested in his system, $50,000-plus and realized price is no guarantee. He had all good name stuff -- a couple of higher-end TNT turntables, a bunch of Sonic Frontiers gear, including a monster pair of monoblocks, a pair of $10,000 Martin Logans and just about every Japanese Blue Note reissue ever made. Maybe it was because he felt compelled to show us just what the system could do -- ear-bleed volume, etc. Whatever it was, I left thinking that my very modest set-up -- at that point a Rega P3, AH! Tjoeb '99 CDP, a pair of horn-loaded speakers I found on the street and an early '80s vintage Pioneer integrated amp -- offered a lot more musical pleasure.

I've upgraded since, but I haven't spent a lot -- less than $3,000 total including cables and phono cartridge -- and I really like the sound. I'm still using the Rega, with a Denon DL103-D cartridge running to a Plinius Jarrah phono preamp, and then into a nOrh SE-9 single-ended EL34-based integrated amp. Speakers are single-driver Omega Super 3s. Cabling includes Nordost Blue Heaven, AlphaCore Goertz Micropurls, homebrew cryo'ed magnet wire ICs with Eichmann bullets and diy CAT-5 speaker cables.

Does it convincingly convey the power of a symphony orchestra? Well, no, but then my room is 13.5 by 9 feet, so nothing really would. But is it relentlessly musical? Absolutely ...

Mike

By the way, those tuners sound interesting ... I'll have to check 'em out.

[Carlman]

Thank you for your post.Notice how many folks are weighing in on this subject?The reason why so few comment on it is because most audiophiles or so called folks really have no idea what they are looking for or hearing for and are like ripe berries on a vine fresh for the plucking by whatever manufacturer claims to have.Thanks for the insights

I notice a lot of people weighing in...  One of the nice things about AC is that most people here are indeed looking for high value hifi and have very specific goals.  I'm sure there are many people 'ripe for plucking' but I would wager that is not the majority here.  I suggest you use those generalations elsewhere.

-C

[Zero]

I am running on my fourth year into this hobby, and while I concede to the inescapable fact that I may never truly be “done”, per say, it has come to the point to where I am ready to hang up the wallet and let it dry and collect funds.  I have had to sit back and ask myself, where does the end, justify the means? I’ve come to find that the answer varies, depending on who you talk to.

There are many things that complicate this hobby.

- Always new equipment that supposed to do new/better things. Sacd, dvd-a, cheap transports, digital amplification,

- The perfection of old, proven technologies.  Set – tube, vintage solid state

- Different cables, wire, at all prices, arguments going every which of direction as to the good and bad

- Online vendors offering supposedly excellent value, giving you more choices.

- System synergy.  There are millions, if not billions of combinations you can try with your audio products, where does one begin?

- Name Brand gear.  There are exceptions, but most of us enjoy snapping off the snazzy names of the gear we own.  

- Online message boards and magazines, constantly reminding you of all of the above..

The list could go on and on, but in short, it can become entirely maddening.  And value, what is that? Is that when you perform DIY projects? Buy used? Stumble across an awesome deal? Clearance? Retail?  Sheesh!!  What was this hobby about again? I got lost somewhere between the good deal on Musical Fidelity and the solid titanium stands I have to use for my bookshelf speakers, lest I miss a soundstage I never knew existed!

There are so many options available to consumers, there is no real valid excuse as to why you cannot create a satisfactory system on the “audiophile” cheap. Once you open your mind to possibilities, take the time to research (remaining steadfast is the trick), and perhaps with the aide of luck, you will be able to find that nirvana, without going over the 10k mark.  Of course, there is no wrong in going over that mark.  It just boils down to where you set your ends, and if the means are justified.

[Tyson]

I think there are 2 reasons for this.

The first is psychological, I think with an inexpensive system people have a much easier time just relaxing and enjoying the music, but with a more expensive system they feel it "has" to be great in order to justify the expense.

The second is something I've noticed myself over several overhauls of my own system.  Lets say that you start out with a decent inexpensive system, it's "pretty good" at most things, but not "really good" at anything.  A small increase in budget will usually get you a system that is "pretty good" at most things, but "really good" at one or 2 things.  But it usually takes a "large" increase in budget to move up to a system that is "really good" at most things.  But then the next step up, is another big increase in budget will get you a system that is "really good" at most things and "world class" in only a couple of things.  And to take the last step to "world class" in every area is, IMO simply impossible because I've never heard any system that was at the world class level in every area.

To follow that thought up, you have to learn to pick those area of sound production that are most important to you and put together your system to be balance with a slight emphasis in those areas.  For example, to me tonal balance, dynamics, and transparency are the most important things.  Imaging and soundstage are nice but not critical.  So, I've tailored my system to sound that way.  I think if more of the general hi-fi populus understood this they'd be happier with their purchases for longer periods of time.  Of course, figuring out what your preferences really are takes time and usually churning through some gear too

[azryan]

Tyson -"-And to take the last step to "world class" in every area is, IMO simply impossible because I've never heard any system that was at the world class level in every area. -"

Do you think this is 'cuz of certain things that just 'can't be done in a system that does certain other things?
Counfusing question I know.
For example... You can't possibly get a dipole sound out of a monopole and vice versa and for a system to do 'everything' it'd have to be able to do both?

Or is that not what you mean and you're just saying you never heard a system that did everything you want a system to do or think it should do?

It gets pretty messy when we all talk 'world class' eh? hehe

[Merle]

I certainly agree with Tyson about the expensive gear mind effect. I've had complete systems worth well over 10K and the more expensive the gear, the more I found myself focusing on the gear, rather than the music.With less expensive gear, I seem to be able to relax more and enjoy the music. Tone is of the greatest importance to me. I feel if the tone is correct, everything else will fall into place. If I can't tell an acoustic bass from an electric, then the system doesn't cut it. Vocals are another absolute must. They must ring true. I've found that tube amps provide the things I crave in music reproduction. After the amp, speakers are most important. Lot's of speakers sound good. Some, less than you would probably expect, rise above and have a quality that, while hard to describe, is easy to hear. I think it comes down to balance. An even tonal balance across the spectrum. Totem's have it, Spendors have it, and for much less money, the Shamrocks have it. No less important than the amp and speakers is the source. This is where I think the most progress is being made at lower price levels. It is possible today to purchase a digital source for under, say, 300 bucks that will smoke the most expensive gear of 5 or 6 years ago. My Jolida/Rotel/Shamrock system just reproduces music in such a way that I don't think about the gear, I just listen and enjoy. That's what it's all about. I'm so happy with it that I've basically reproduced the same system up in our bedroom. There, you will find a Jolida 707A integrated, a Rotel tuner [$500 and not as good as the Realistic, although still a fine tuner] and as soon as they make their way across the country, a brand new pair of Shamrock Audio Eilish loudspeakers. Also a small flat screen TV with Toshiba DVD player. This system is also extreamly good at reproducing enjoyable music. It's a great time to be a budget audiophile!

[Mathew_M]

In the long run it's all about the musicality of a system.  Does your system actually play music that is so engrossing that you listen for hours at a time.  This is the elusiveness that I speak of.  Most of us try too hard to put together a system that reproduces live music.  I hate to say this but outside of the symphony most live music sounds bad.  Time and place in regards to live music have a much larger play in how much you enjoy it.  I have found that tubes do the best at reproducing that sense of being engrossed in the music.  While I think my XR25 sounds amazing at reproducing the sonic signal it does leave a bit lacking.  I can listen to it and be in awe of it but it doesn't draw me in like good tube amps do.

[Tyson]

Tyson -"-And to take the last step to "world class" in every area is, IMO simply impossible because I've never heard any system that was at the world class level in every area. -"

Do you think this is 'cuz of certain things that just 'can't be done in a system that does certain other things?
Counfusing question I know.
For example... You can't possibly get a dipole sound out of a monopole and vice versa and for a system to do 'everything' it'd have to be able to do both?

Or is that not what you me ...

Both.  I've never heard it in real life, and theoretically it also seems impossible at the moment.  For example, just looking at speakers, ribbons/planars/cone&dome/monopole/dipole speakers all have different, unique strengths and weaknesses.  How can one get the transparency and cleanliness of ribbons or planars with the tactile and percussive capacilities of a cone/dome system, or the soundstage size of a di or bi pole speaker combined with the imaging precision of a monopole, or the killer dynamics and "liveness" of horn speakers or linesource speakers with the "complete disappearing act" of small point source speakers.  And we haven't even gotten to the various strengths of tube/digital/SS amps and the hybrids of each, or digital (hi rez or redbook) vs. vinyl.  Can you take what a digital lover likes and combine it completely with the sound a vinyl lover wants?  Is it even possible?  I don't think so, to me it's like trying to combine filet mignon with ice cream.  They are both great on their own, but just won't quite mix.  

In my very strongly held opinion, once you get past a certain level of quality, it "all" comes down to personal preference.  That's why 2 people can listen to the same setup and come away with different judgements on how good it is.

As for myself, I hear and recognize what vinly lovers like, and what cone/dome speaker lovers like, and what bi-pole speaker lovers like, but to me those things are not as important as some other things.  That's why I don't own a turntable, or a cone/dome speaker (at least not in my 2 channel setup), small 2 way speakers, or bi-pole speakers.  

That was a hard step for me to take, because I'd hear a friends setup that just did the soundstage/image thing absolutely stunningly, and I'd want that, but I know that in order to get it I'd have to give up some things, and I'm just not willing to do that.

[JoshK]

word!

[mcrespo71]

Damn, Tyson!  That was a very "Yoda-like" statement.  Nice job.

Michael

[Eric]

Tyson Wrote:


"In my very strongly held opinion, once you get past a certain level of quality, it "all" comes down to personal preference. That's why 2 people can listen to the same setup and come away with different judgements on how good it is. "

Tyson,

I agree with this totally. I think once you get past a certain point it is not necessarily a matter of better, only different. I know that usually when i get the urge to change, it is because I have heard something that sounds different than my system, not really better