The Great NC DAC Shootout!! MENSA/BC/Nixon/MF

BikeWNC · « **Reply #20 on:** 4 Feb 2003, 12:23 am »

B

I guess what we learned this weekend is that perhaps as many as 4 out of 5 people prefer the sound of the BC Dac2 in Brad's system, as it was configured, that day, with whatever planetary alignment, moon phase or weather pattern we were coincidentally experiencing at the time.

It makes we wonder if these shootouts, while fascinating and fun, have any real significance to anyone other than the host whose system was used. But seriously, I did learn quite a lot. Mostly, I was able to gain a little more insight into my own preferences of what I want to hear coming out of the speakers.

Andy

Al Garay · « **Reply #21 on:** 4 Feb 2003, 01:39 am »

I'm glad you guys had a fun get together.

Unfortunately, for me, I find it hard to conclude much from your findings. I am concern that your pre-amp, the old Audio Research SP6 would have a significant affect on the outcome. AR components that I have heard are very colored, do not give a natural representation as some of the better pre-amps frequently mentioned in this forum, (Grounded Grid, AKSA GK1, BentAudio TX102, ....)

As Jackman has found with his ART DIO, it did not integrate well with his Decware ZTPRE. He was about to sell it, (and I would have bought it) until he tried it again with his new AVA pre-amp. Then, he chose to keep it.
I found that the ART DIO is also a great match for my Bent Audio TX102, which is a passive design. The 7v from the ART provides additional gain. Plus, I'm comparing a $95+ $50 in mods ... LT $150 modded unit instead of the $600+ Bolder unit.

Again, I don't want you to think I'm bashing your review. I appreciate you sharing your findings. That's how we all learn. I just wish Brad would be a good boy this year so Santa could bring him a real nice preamp. I know you have done well to have gotten the rest of your system (superb!). Your pre-amp is the weak link.

Al

Xi-Trum · « **Reply #22 on:** 4 Feb 2003, 02:00 am »

Thanks for the reviews and comments, guys. Of the DACs in the comparison, I've heard the smART DI/O which is a cousin of the Mensa. I had also heard the BC on the same occasion. From our comparison a while back, the smART squeezed out good details but sounded analytical and bright. So, I'm wondering that when you're listening to the Mensa, does it seem like you're listening to Hi-Fi versus music? To be honest, the Mensa is probably the only DAC in the lineup that I'm interested in. So, your assessment is well appreciated.

Hantra · « **Reply #23 on:** 4 Feb 2003, 02:54 am »

Xi:

I am not going to comment much on this b/c I don't want to ruffle any feathers. The Art, smART, and MENSA are the DAC's of choice for many many people here, and the MENSA is a fine DAC! It was the most revealing of any DAC we heard. Although I am beginning to realize that we did take on a bit too much comparing 4 DAC's. But that's okay, it's done.

I wish I had more time with the MENSA in my own system b/c it may be much better with my all tube system. In the configuration I heard it in yesterday, and to answer your question, I would say that the MENSA is not bright. It is a bit analytical, but not offensively so. It is very neutral, and very balanced. I wouldn't call it bright at all, as it doesn't emphasize high, or low frequencies any more than the other frequencies. That could be a great thing in your system!

As I said though, and I believe my cohorts will agree, it is better to hear any of these in your system, and what we heard is not necessarily indicative of what the DAC's will be like in any system except the one we heard them on.

B

B

tmd · « **Reply #24 on:** 4 Feb 2003, 01:01 pm »

Thanks guys for sharing your impressions with us.
What I take from your review is that the cheapest DAC is worthy of consideration at least. I would love to build the tubed version.
JohnR, how much does it cost for a full kit of parts for the tubed version, as you have ordered it? I can't figure it out from the site.
Wayne, would you consider putting a MENSA out there like the DeZorel filter so that people can hear it for a small outlay? As everyone says, it is very important to hear these units in your own system. I can't think of a better way to do it than to ship it around to many. It would probably boost sales also

BTW, where can I read more about the excel arrays?
Thanks, Neil.

Brad V · « **Reply #25 on:** 4 Feb 2003, 01:37 pm »

Hi Neil,

I'll thrown in a few links:

Pictures of them:
http://members.aol.com/bvirgil311/excel.htm

Review by a guy from Denver, Colorado, who flew in to hear my speakers:
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=speakers&n=106118&highlight=excelarray+gme&r=&session=

Review by a speaker builder from Atlanta who drove up to hear them:
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/discuss.cgi?read=225471

My review I made a while back:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/speakers/messages/103688.html

I have to comment about a few things:
These speakers are extremely transparent and neutral. Line arrays load the room much better than a point source and thus don't have the bass boom that a point source might cause. People who aren't used to well controlled bass, might believe that it is lacking bass. The same thing happens when you use a Tact Room correction system and hear your speakers for the first time thru it. They are extremely accurate and will play, exactly what you feed it. If you are used to a sweet sound, you can color it with tubes and colorful DACs, etc... If you want a very neutral, you can use your favorite equipment to feed thru it to obtain these results. The speakers will disappear and I haven't heard anyone, who can say that they can tell the music is coming form a box. Also the Mid/bass and ribbons blend together, they sound like one driver.

The guy from Denver has been an audiophile for many years and you can see by his list of past equipment, that he has played the game. He has an incredible ear and knows how to tell the difference between a good speaker and a bad one.

People who are used to bloom, boxy sounds, coloration due to uncontrolled cabinet resonance might perceive the Excelarray's not to their liking.

Hope that helps.

Have a great day,

Brad

audiojerry · « **Reply #26 on:** 4 Feb 2003, 03:42 pm »

Thanks, Brad, for your information on the Excelarray's. I'd love to be able to hear them. Can I ask some questions?

They seem to be sitting on platforms. Why is that, and what are they constructed of?

I know you are using room correction, but have you considered the detrimental effects of your room and placement of your speakers? There seem to be a number of factors working against the speakers:
the large tv screen and hard surfaces of the component system between the speakers,
the lack of room acoustic treatments (especially behind the speakers,
the closeness of the speakers to the wall behind them,
and the glass coffee table in the path of the listening position.

Al Garey, as long as we are making statements of fact, I will take Audio Research over any of the components you mentioned.

Hantra · « **Reply #27 on:** 4 Feb 2003, 03:58 pm »

Neil:

The Excelarrays are one of the best speakers I have ever heard. They are very accurate, and very consistent. They're tight, and fast, and have lots of nice bass. Even though Brad says that some think they lack bass I don't think they lack bass at all.

One thing I have noticed about them in my two nice listening sessions with them is that they will react in a big way to changes in the system. The tube pre-amp that Brad is using now really shines on the Excelarrays, and I think that is a testament to their accuracy.

I'd recommend taking a listen if you can!

B

Brad V · « **Reply #28 on:** 4 Feb 2003, 04:01 pm »

You're very welcome about the information.

The platform you ask about servers several functions:
1) It gives a logical and physical place to mount the 45" Newform Ribbon and have it in the same height as the Seas Excel W18 drivers.
2) Allows a place to house the crossovers
3) Good strong foundation
4) Place to mount the spikes

I believe the base's sides, back and top are made out of 3/4" MDF, which is veneered with Cherry and outlined in Curly Maple.

As for the cabinet that houses the Seas Excel Drivers, it is 3/4" MDF on sides and back, with 1" MDF for the front. There is a shelf between each drivers, which really gives great bracing.

They seem to be sitting on platforms. Why is that, and what are they constructed of?

I realize more than you can imagine, the detrimental effects of where I have my equipment. This is definitely a WAF thing and until I build my dedicated listening room, things don't look like they'll change. I've been over to a friends house in Raleigh, who had the same speakers as I used to have. His speakers are pulled out like 8 feet into his room, nothing between the speakers, nothing to the sides and nothing between the listener and the speakers. He has his rack sitting right next to him, with long speaker cables. The difference between his sytem is staggering. I realize that I have lots of room for improvement.

Anyone who has heard the Tact in my system, cannot recommend me getting rid of it, as it's improvements are major. They aren't nearly as important, as they once were with my last set of speakers, as the line array loads the room so nice and I don't have any bass boom. Now that I'm more into vinyl, I have thought about getting rid of the Tact and being able to take that money and put it to better use on the Vinyl front. Then once I listen to a CD and switch between bypass mode and room correction, it is hard to think about getting rid of it.

You are more than welcome to come hear it. Gary from Denver flew in, just to put his mind at ease before selling off some equipment and buying the Excelarrays. He was almost there a few weeks ago, until UPS mangled up a Spectron Musician II he sold. Now he's waiting on UPS to pay the claim, before he places his order. IMO, this speaker is the bargain of the century, if you are able to spend $5,100.00 on a speaker system.

Have a great day,

Brad

BikeWNC · « **Reply #29 on:** 4 Feb 2003, 04:16 pm »

I would like to add my impressions of the ExcelArray speaker system I heard at the dac shootout this past weekend. First let me say that these speakers are larger than I would have need for. At 5 ft tall and 200 lb. apiece, the are not huge but I feel they do require a large room in which to breathe. The Newform ribbons have such great horizontal dispersion that placing these babys anywhere close to the side wall would be asking for trouble. The pair was placed on the long wall in Brad's room about 12 ft apart. The preferred listening location was what I estimate to be at the point of an equilateral triangle, and that's where I sat for at least half of the listening session. The simplest way to describe these speakers is to say they are characterless, an open window to the signal presented them. I am certain that any minute change in the signal chain would be exposed by their ruthless transparency. However to describe them as without character would not be correct. After arriving home I listened to some of the same tracks we had used during the shootout. I could go on about how my VA Mozarts sounded boxy compared to the ExcelArrays, but I think that you probably already know that. Or how the silk dome tweeter, while very pleasing to listen to, was no match for the clarity or imaging of the ribbons. No surprise there. But it was in the mid-bass down that just bugged me the most. My speakers sounded muddy, with fat, slow bass by comparison. The ExcelArray were able to deliver the mid-bass on down with such speed and definition in such an effortless way without coloration. I think that is the character of the ExcelArray speaker system. Did they produce heart pounding bass? No, but then most of the music listened to during the session did not call for it. Brad says they will play flat to 30 Hz in his room, and uses a sub to fill in below that.

During the listening session, the ExcelArrays never called attention to themselves. That is to say the music was presented on a soundstage where the speakers themselves just didn't exist. I never heard any transition between the ribbons and woofers. Totally seamless. Heck, I really didn't look at the speakers at all, the music is all I noticed. I really wish I had because I cannot honestly comment on the cabinets or overall construction, though it looked great. The only caveat I will mention is that the vertical dispersion of the ribbons is quite limited, so at height above 5 ft there is a significant drop-off in high end energy. All my listening was done seated. The amazing thing to me is I believe that they cost only twice what the VA Mozarts do. Thanks to Brad for opening up his home for the shootout.

Andy

Brad V · « **Reply #30 on:** 4 Feb 2003, 04:28 pm »

Andy brought up a good point that I neglected to say about the bottom cabinet. The other reason for the bottom cabinet, is to align the center of the 6 Seas Excel driver sand the center of the ribbon with you ears. Just about anyplace between 12 inches off the ground and 60 inches high, you'd get the same sound. This allows for any buyer to be able to have different preferences. I prefer being able to get great sound while of course sitting up, but also slouching back into the couch and laying down on the couch. I prefer that to getting great sound while I'm standing up. If someone prefers to get better sound standing up and their ear height is over 60", when standing, they could have a higher base.

Andy and Brandon have given very accurate statments, as far as I'm concerned.

Thanks and have a great day,

Brad

Hantra · « **Reply #31 on:** 4 Feb 2003, 04:52 pm »

Quote

During the listening session, the ExcelArrays never called attention to themselves.

Andy:

That is absolutely the best way I have heard to describe these speakers. It's really hard to listen just to the speakers b/c they get the heck out of the way, and you listen to the system, and the music more. I rarely thought about the speakers, and to me, that's a great thing!

B

ABEX · « **Reply #32 on:** 4 Feb 2003, 10:17 pm »

Would just like to say great shootout people!

Will review all of what has been said when I can.

Quite surprised that you could get this going in the Carolina's on such short notice.Just goes to show how advanced this Hobby has become.

Wayne is great for allowing you to use his personal DAC .That gives him great credibility.

Thanks!

Xi-Trum · « **Reply #33 on:** 5 Feb 2003, 01:20 am »

Hantra, thanks. I'm a bit perplexed here. If the mensa is accurate, neutral, and balanced, and the sound is analytical and sterile (hi-fi as some would call it), wouldn't the mensa be pointing out a problem somewhere else in the component chain? And that the other DACs are merely covering up the fault?

Just wondering.

Hantra · « **Reply #34 on:** 5 Feb 2003, 01:37 am »

Xi:

Isn't that the million dollar question? Hi-Fi as an industry makes hundreds of millions off the question you just asked. If I knew the answer, all that money would be MINE! And I'd be like Dr. Evil selling gear to everyone here. hehe

B

nature boy · « **Reply #35 on:** 5 Feb 2003, 02:08 am »

Thanks to the NC Audio group for their shootout results. Great observations on four very good, modestly priced DAC's. I can't imagine how difficult it must have been comparing four different unit, but I hope you guys had a great time getting to know one another and listening.

All of us audiofools appreciate your insights and sharing your listening experience.

NB

BikeWNC · « **Reply #36 on:** 5 Feb 2003, 02:15 am »

Xi:

I think you could have the perfect balance of components; amps, pre, dac, TT, speakers, cables, power, etc.; extremely transparent, exquisitely balanced, tonally accurate, synergy to the max, to the point that every time you listen it makes you cry in sheer delight. Move that same system to a friends house and it might be analytical, cold and sterile. I've moved my system through three different rooms in my house and each time there have been major changes in what I hear. The room is the only component you can't take with you when auditioning a new piece. That's why listening to new components with your other gear, in your own home, is so important.

Andy

BobM · « **Reply #37 on:** 5 Feb 2003, 02:37 pm »

Thanks for taking the time to compare the 4 DAC's. Not an easy task and certainly subject to listener fatigue and system synergy

I've been playing with cables lately and checking them out between my modded DI/O and preamp. What I've found is that those qualities we all judge components by, and all those comparative words we use, are dramatically influenced by cables. And to make it more complicated, cables that sound better in one setup sound worse in another.

Now this is nothing new to those who know. But it would be interesting to take a warm (copper) sounding cable and use it on the MENSA DI/O, then take an analytical (silver) cable and try it on the warmer bloomier DAC's. You may find that they all sound more similar than before.

Now my system tends to the warm, analogue side, so a crisper sounding DAC works better for me while still keeping the music alive, and a silver/copper hybrid interconnect brings the best of both worlds to me.

My ultimate goal is to play my Aries clone against the DI/O and have them both sound musically and "audiophilically" wonderful! Simple goal - complex task.

Enjoy,
Bob

Marbles · « **Reply #38 on:** 5 Feb 2003, 02:54 pm »

Quote from: BobM

My ultimate goal is to play my Aries clone against the DI/O and have them both sound musically and "audiophilically" wonderful! Simple goal - complex task.

Enjoy,
Bob

I don't want to hi-jack this thread, but is that Aries clone your talking about a VPI Aries TT? If so can you provide more information on it?

Maybe start a new thread in the vinyl circle?

BikeWNC · « **Reply #39 on:** 5 Feb 2003, 06:47 pm »

BobM,

Quote

Now this is nothing new to those who know. But it would be interesting to take a warm (copper) sounding cable and use it on the MENSA DI/O, then take an analytical (silver) cable and try it on the warmer bloomier DAC's. You may find that they all sound more similar than before.

I think you hit the nail on the head. The whole goal of the shootout was to try to list the differences we heard among the 4 dacs in Brad's very revealing system under the same conditions. For example, in another system, I think the BC Dac2 would still be warmer sounding than the Mensa Dio. Now, changing a cable or two, or any component for that matter, might make the system warmer with the Mensa Dio and make the BC Dac2 overly warm and muddy. The BC Dac2 would still be warmer but in this case, over the top. Regardless, the Mensa Dio would still have the slight edge in focus, IMO, because that is what we heard in our comparison. Now using different cables on each of the dacs could give completely different results. Ain't it a bitch!