[kenreau]

Hi Danny,

Your forum has a lot of great information.  Thanks for sharing your expertise and step-by-step assembly skills.

I have a general question regarding selecting crossover component quality.  If this topic has already been addressed elsewhere, just point me in that direction.

My inquiry is, how do you prioritize which crossover components to upgrade, and to what level? 

I have Harbeth speakers and after looking into the xover, I see what appears to be a lot of room for improvements.  All polyester caps, iron core inductors, cheesy sand cast resistors all on a large printed circuit board.  I was considering doing some upgrades and just wondering where best to prioritize time and funds$.

I'll skip past resistors, as I am completely sold on the Mills resistors and understand the benefits over generic sand cast wire wound low tolerance stuff.

Regarding inductors/coils, often times I see magnetic core, air core, and foil inductors.  It appears that iron core might be analogous to electrolytic caps (high values for lowest cost).  Is the foil inductor considered the ideal solution if affordable?  Would you use the best quality at a tweeter as opposed to a midrange or woofer?

For caps, these are typically the most expensive for better materials, tolerance and quality.  Is it mostly a balancing act of size/mF value with budget and quality (say starting with a minimum Solen/Erse metalized polypro and going up to Sonicap, teflon, Jupiter exotics at most critical locations).  Skip electrolytics if at all possible?

My notion is parts in series are more audible than those in parallel. 

In a 3-way(or more) driver speaker, is the priority level the highest for the tweeter? then midrange? woofer last?  Or midrange (vocal range) the most critical?

Thanks
Kenreau

[Danny Richie]

It sounds like you have a good handle on this already.

Your largest margin of differences will be with the capacitors. You have to first determine the real value of the speaker or how far you are willing to take it. The signature of the drivers should be considered as well so you don't go with a cap that will take you in the wrong direction. An example would be a Hovland Aluminum foil cap tended to have a sharp, dry, but often grainy character. It was horrible on our Focal tweeters that we used to carry, but sounded pretty good with some over damped soft domes.

The Erse caps are what I go with for a reasonably clean sounding poly cap that cost very little. The Sonicaps are my typical cap of choice for most of the drivers I like as they offer good performance with little coloration and at a reasonable price. You can move further up the performance ladder and even spend stupid money doing it so again, what is the speaker worth to start with?

Iron core type inductors should always be avoided for frequency ranges above 200Hz or so. The foil inductors top my list of the best overall sound but not by much. The difference in the foil verses an Erse XQ are really slim. Often the Copper purity in the foil is not as good as some wire wound inductors so it can be give and take. Also, the Jansen inductors are typically priced very well, and for good reason, they tested with a very low 94 to 96% Copper purity. So these are very likely recycled Copper. I'd avoid those.

Good move on the Mills resistors. They are reasonably priced and really good quality. So they are tough to beat.

Good luck on those Harbeth's it sounds like there is a lot of up side potential there.

[Æ]

I found this interesting and you might too. Someone over at PartsExpress posted the test results of a variety of capacitors.
Looks like the very affordable Daytons are just as good as the Sonicaps.

[Æ]

Skip electrolytics if at all possible?

My notion is parts in series are more audible than those in parallel. 

Yes, definitely skip electrolytics. I absolutely cannot stand to use them in passive crossover networks.

It's a misnomer to think that only series components matter. Everything in the circuit matters. If you use high distortion components in parallel, they are still high distortion components and contribute just as equally.

[Danny Richie]

That's funny.

If all I measured was load capacity one might even think that my Suburban was a better performing vehicle than my Vette. 

I have tried the Dayton caps and I place them somewhere behind the Solen or Erse caps, but not in the same league as a Sonicap.

[Æ]

That's funny.

If all I measured was load capacity one might even think that my Suburban was a better performing vehicle than my Vette. 

I have tried the Dayton caps and I place them somewhere behind the Solen or Erse caps, but not in the same league as a Sonicap.

From the graph I posted, it looks like Mundorfs are better and cheaper than Sonicaps too.
The only capacitors I really ever hear anyone complain about are Solens!

Anytime you want to play "chicken" I'll drive the Suburban and you can drive the Vette. We'll see who flinches first.

[Danny Richie]

Anytime you want to play "chicken" I'll drive the Suburban and you can drive the Vette. We'll see who flinches first.

That just further illustrates my point. You can make anything one thing look better compared to another if you only look at a single aspect.

From the graph I posted, it looks like Mundorfs are better and cheaper than Sonicaps too.

Better how? Have you listened to each of them? I have. I have even listened to every variation that Mundorf makes. If they sounded better and were less money than I would certainly be using them, but they don't.

[Æ]

That just further illustrates my point. You can make anything one thing look better compared to another if you only look at a single aspect.

Better how? Have you listened to each of them? I have. I have even listened to every variation that Mundorf makes. If they sounded better and were less money than I would certainly be using them, but they don't.

I'm not disagreeing with your subjective evaluation, to each their own.

I don't have to own or ever even drive a Vette to know it's faster than a Suburban. I know it is, I read the specs.

That part about impure copper was very interesting. I know that copper is sometimes alloyed for other reasons than cheapening the price. I wonder how one would test for purity? I know you can measure resistance in Ohms and conductance in Seimens. . . I recently bought some copper sheet that was alloyed with a small amount of steel. I think it had something to do with ductility.

[jtwrace]

I wonder how one would test for purity?

Very simple to have a lab do it.  It's done everyday. 

[kenreau]

Thanks for the informative reply, Danny.  They are the Harbeth 40.1's and I think they are probably worth investing in some parts upgrades to extract some latent potential.  I'll open them up during my Thanksgiving break and gather some specifics and get back in touch. 

Thx
Kenreau

It sounds like you have a good handle on this already.

Your largest margin of differences will be with the capacitors. You have to first determine the real value of the speaker or how far you are willing to take it. The signature of the drivers should be considered as well so you don't go with a cap that will take you in the wrong direction. An example would be a Hovland Aluminum foil cap tended to have a sharp, dry, but often grainy character. It was horrible on our Focal tweeters that we used to carry, but sounded pretty good with some over damped soft domes.

The Erse caps are what I go with for a reasonably clean sounding poly cap that cost very little. The Sonicaps are my typical cap of choice for most of the drivers I like as they offer good performance with little coloration and at a reasonable price. You can move further up the performance ladder and even spend stupid money doing it so again, what is the speaker worth to start with?

Iron core type inductors should always be avoided for frequency ranges above 200Hz or so. The foil inductors top my list of the best overall sound but not by much. The difference in the foil verses an Erse XQ are really slim. Often the Copper purity in the foil is not as good as some wire wound inductors so it can be give and take. Also, the Jansen inductors are typically priced very well, and for good reason, they tested with a very low 94 to 96% Copper purity. So these are very likely recycled Copper. I'd avoid those.

Good move on the Mills resistors. They are reasonably priced and really good quality. So they are tough to beat.

Good luck on those Harbeth's it sounds like there is a lot of up side potential there.

[Danny Richie]

If I understand correctly they also utilize a very lossy box. I hear that they are lightly constructed and unbraced.

So lining them with No Rez might be a considerable improvement as well.

[kenreau]

If I understand correctly they also utilize a very lossy box. I hear that they are lightly constructed and unbraced.

So lining them with No Rez might be a considerable improvement as well.

Exactly my thought as well.  I have been reading about the BBC studies resulting in their very practical lossy box design, including screwed down foam gasketed front and rear baffles to mimic a "cracked" bell that doesn't resonate (as much).  Basically, their engineering tests proved a lossy wood box with maximized damping material inside (bitumen tiles at the time) was superior for sound reproduction over a typical rigid & thick paneled box.  I think your No Rez should be the cat's meow there.  The oem damping material leaves a lot to be desired.  Imho, the Harbeth build quality is A.S. being too practical (aka cheap) to a fault sometimes.  Got to love his solid, engineering practicality though.

Kenreau

[Danny Richie]

From what I understand they are tuning the box to add a nice warm resonance right in the mid-range. It adds a nice coloration that many like. However, this is actually allowing the speaker to lean a little towards being an instrument rather then true to reproducing the original signal pure to form.

[JfTM]

From what I understand they are tuning the box to add a nice warm resonance right in the mid-range. It adds a nice coloration that many like. However, this is actually allowing the speaker to lean a little towards being an instrument rather then true to reproducing the original signal pure to form.

Be careful!  The Harbeth thin wall design is key to the HArbeth sound, it is designed to flex as would the body of an instrument.  Not sure you'd add internal bracing to your classic Martin guitar because you could feel it vibrate 

If you are looking for crossover parts, send these guys a note http://www.falconacoustics.co.uk/. 

[Danny Richie]

Be careful!  The Harbeth thin wall design is key to the HArbeth sound, it is designed to flex as would the body of an instrument.  Not sure you'd add internal bracing to your classic Martin guitar because you could feel it vibrate 

If you are looking for crossover parts, send these guys a note http://www.falconacoustics.co.uk/.

Understood, but there is a big difference in reproducing accurately and allowing the instrument of reproduction to shift over to primary production. Their house sound may be well liked by some, but that is not at all accurate.

All boxes add some level of coloration. When it all goes away and you get used to no coloration to the sound, when you hear it from a speaker like the Harbeth it sticks out immediately as coloration.

I have heard some granite paneled speakers and speakers made with stacked Baltic Birch laminations present some of the cleanest mid-range I have ever heard. Even better still is moving to open baffle designs. Open baffle designs have kind of ruined me. Now I hear box coloration in just about everything else I listen to.

I think lining the Harbeth's with No Rez is going to be a significant improvement. And if you don't like it you can always peal it back out of there.

[Danny Richie]

If you are looking for crossover parts, send these guys a note

For one, those guys are in the UK.

Secondly, they only carry budget level parts primarily, with a few mid-fi level parts at best.

And thirdly, I carry a great selection of top level parts across the board. And I am offering the service and support to go along with it.

[jtwrace]

For one, those guys are in the UK.

Secondly, they only carry budget level parts primarily, with a few mid-fi level parts at best.

And thirdly, I carry a great selection of top level parts across the board. And I am offering the service and support to go along with it.

...and it was posted in the GR circle.   

[JfTM]

...and it was posted in the GR circle.   

Sorry, I though people who posted questions wanted answers. 

My bad.

Won't be back   

[Danny Richie]

Sorry, I though people who posted questions wanted answers. 

My bad.

Won't be back   

Answers are fine. Sharing experiences are fine. Even impressions that differ from those of others or mine are still fine. Everyone can have an opinion.

What you did was recommend a competitor. Really? And you don't think that won't be frowned upon?

[jackman]

Danny is a great guy and a talented designer, but he is runnning a business. He doesn't charge for advice but I wouldn't ask him for advice and buy components from someone else unless he didn't carry what I needed.