You people scare me. :-)

ScottMayo · « **on:** 26 Apr 2004, 03:47 pm »

I'm considering buying RM/X's, but 2 things stop me:

1) No one within 200 miles seems to have a pair, so I can't audition before I buy (can anyone fix this? I'm in North Central Mass), AND

2) You people all seem to be tweakers, and you mostly claim that a 15$ investment in wool or bracing or overhanging wood produces a noticable sonic difference in VMPS speakers - leading me to believe that VMPS is missing *really* simple, cheap improvements in their design. And that's just fundamentally disturbing. You don't hear hordes of Nautilus 802 owners tweaking...

I'm new to VMPS - I've never seen or heard a pair of VMPS speakers anywhere - and I'm intrigued, but skeptical. On one hand, the 20 people in the world who seem to own high end VMPS swear their speakers walk on water, in fact they claim they jog past speakers costing 5x as much. On the other... if a 15$ tweak makes *any* audible improvement in a 12,000$ (or even 4,000$) speaker, something's very wrong. ANY manufacturer would be OVERJOYED to cut their profits by 0.1% to get noticably better sound! And I don't want to spend hours with a screwdriver, worrying that I'm going to scratch the finish on my speakers or snap an expensive wire: I want to spend that time listening to music.

So come clean, people. I'm holding up buying speakers because I want to give the VMPS a chance (and because Nautilus 802's are just a little too laid back for me, and because I keep hoping someone will sell some 6 month old Pipedreams for under $10,000 - such is my fantasy life). But I'm not spending that kind of money on a speaker I need to tweak. So, assuming I *ever* get to listen and buy, do these speakers really need the "tweak of the week" to sound their best, or am I going to get what I'm after: the best possible quality for my cash, without Some Significant Reassembly Required?

I imagine John C and Brian C (and dealers in general) are twitching to answer, but I'm really interested in answers from people with no financial stake in my purchase. Thanks muchly!

Marbles · « **Reply #1 on:** 26 Apr 2004, 04:03 pm »

My RM40's were better than any other speaker I had heard including the N800, 801, 802.

One of the dealers I bought a pair of 626R's from is building his own custome set of RM40's. He let me know about the lambswool.

He also let another member here know about it. That member tried it and liked the change. Since it only cost $20 for me to try, I figured I had very little to lose.

I did like the change. This week BC will be trying the lambswool.

If he likes it, I'm sure he will include it in future speakers, or at least have it as an option.

VMPS speakers are upgraded more often than speakers from about any other company I know.

I would always recommend you try the speakers out first, before you buy, but I don't think you should have any worries because some of us like to tweak.

Most of the "tweaks", like the upgraded tweeter and extra bracing have already been incorperated into current designs, and have never effected the RM/X's.

The people who buy B&W N series speakers generally have more money than time to devote to their speakers and think they are getting the "best".

Those of us who have more time than money know that VMPS is generally better (individual tastes may dictate otherwise) and we also spend more time online and hear about the tweaks.

JoshK · « **Reply #2 on:** 26 Apr 2004, 04:14 pm »

IMHO, the B&W 802 are no contest for even the RM40's let alone the RM/X. I have heard them on much more expensive equipment many times and always thought they were uninspiring in their sound and even a bit edgy. However, they do look nice.

I think we here, that post about VMPS are a tweaky group, whereas people who purchase a $15,000 pair of B&Ws are typically a different crowd. They just aren't going to take a screw driver to their speakers to see if it would sound better with wool stuff, which it probably would. Ignorance is bliss. I think I can truthfully and sincerely say that the VMPS RM/X will outperform the B&Ws in stock form, if you wish to try wool, you might just get a tiny more. The reason you get more is because the VMPS speakers are resolving enough to hear the difference where many speakers aren't.

If you really want to get the wool stuffing but don't want to do it yourself. Order your RM/Xs with wool stuffing. I am sure BC or JC would be willing to hook you up.

PLMONROE · « **Reply #3 on:** 26 Apr 2004, 04:23 pm »

Scott,

My only connection with VMPS is that I bought a pair of RM-40's sight (and sound) unseen, solely basd on their awards at CES. Last week I had the pleasure of visiting the home of a local merchant client of mine to hear his system. Didn't sound too bad but his speakers (at over $20,000 per pair) not only did not sound as good as mine --THEY DID NOT EVEN COME CLOSE!!!

Paul

Ric Schultz · « **Reply #4 on:** 26 Apr 2004, 04:24 pm »

The reason you see people tweaking here is because it is an open forum. Yes, people have tweaked B&W and any other speaker you can think of....yes, even Wilson...good God! However, when you have an open forum where anything can be said and suggested by anyone then you have an open exchange of information which can assist in bettering a product. The RM-30 was a direct result of peoples desires and suggestions.

The RMX is already braced to the max and does not need the flaps on top because it has more bass than the other RM series speakers. I am sure that Brian can put the wool behind the midranges for you (seems I remember Eric trying the wool in his RMXs and did not hear any difference). If you buy the RMX with the Dynamicaps and the silver wire on the woofer, you will have no mods to do. Everyone is trying to make their smaller VMPS speakers perform like the RMX....if you start at the top then you have nothing to do but tweak the passive radiator, set the pots, grin and enjoy the show.

You have to remember that being an audiophile is a compulsive perfectionistic game. Anything can be improved whether B&W or VMPS or whatever. There has neve been any component that has remained the worlds best for more than a couple of years (except the original Quad loudspeaker). So, enjoy your RMXs knowing for a couple of years you will have State of the Art sound....and then you can trade them in for the latest model....heh heh. Actually, I am sure you could keep the RMXs for years and years knowing you have a tremendous, tremendous speaker.

RGordonpf · « **Reply #5 on:** 26 Apr 2004, 04:35 pm »

I have owned three pairs of VMPS speakers over the last 10 years. I currently have a pair of the RM30s and a Large subwoofer. During those ten years I have tweaked a lot of things in my system, but I have never touched my VMPS speakers once I had them properly set up. This is not because the speakers could not be improved - nothing in this world is perfect. However, in my estimation, I got bigger bang for my buck by tweaking other areas of my system. I know audiophiles who don't tweak at all. I know other audiophiles whose greatest pleasure is trying out the Tweak-of-the-Week. Different strokes for different folks. You don't have to tweak VMPS speakers if you don't want to. They sound great just as they come from the factory. At least that is my opinion. I go to the CES every year and hear the greatest speakers in the world and yet I always buy VMPS. I like to think there is a reason.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #6 on:** 26 Apr 2004, 05:00 pm »

Quote from: ScottMayo

I'm considering buying RM/X's, but 2 things stop me:

1) No one within 200 miles seems to have a pair, so I can't audition before I buy (can anyone fix this? I'm in North Central Mass)

Hello Scott,

JDoyle · « **Reply #7 on:** 26 Apr 2004, 05:01 pm »

Well, I'll admit that I do not consider myself to be an audiophile. That is, I do not posses the desire to learn all of this terminology that, by and large they use as a group along with using the tweaks and methods to get the best sound possible. I admire them... but it's just not me.

I know I'm a "set it and forget it" guy. I do however appreciate and want good sound.

I'm somewhat intimidated by this putty tuning too, but I'm feeling more comfortable now and that's because I listened to them.

You have got to go and hear this things... they're incredible!

Last week I made the 4.5 hour trip to Flint MI to hear the RM 30's. Again my terminology lacks here but I'll tell you that I just sat there and smiled.
No, I haven't heard all of the brands out there, but IMO, they put my friends B&W's to shame. I was totally impressed. The 30's were only driven by a modest B&K amp too.

My problem now is deciding which ones to get. It's between the 30's and 40's. I liked the 30's better while seated, but once you stand up it's gone.
Rod at Today's Audio insisted I listened to the RMX's. I honestly didn't ask to because I knew I couldn't afford them. Man, am I glad he insisted. Again, my lack of lingo here... I'll use the laymans term of "jaw dropping"

One track had random pecussion with pauses between the beats... I literally jumped! It scared me as if someone snuck up behind me and popped a ballon. And the vocals are so lifelike, again they're incredible.

Go buy a cheap flight and either see Roop in NYC or Rod in Flint. You'll be glad you did.

John

ScottMayo · « **Reply #8 on:** 26 Apr 2004, 05:09 pm »

Sheesh, manufacturers kill to have buyers like you. Or are you all dealers?

Anyway, I still have the problem that I want to listen to a pair of RM/X's. C'mon, dealers, owners, anybody: doesn't anyone own these things in Massachusetts? Southern New Hampshire? Rhode Island, for pity's sake? Any dealer know a really satisfied customer in my area that they wouldn't be too shy to contact on my behalf? I hereby promise not to drool on their carpets, or steal their speakers, even if I like them a lot. I'll buy my own, honest.

It's worth your while: when I like a product, I talk about it. Here's what I've said about Bryston: http://users.net1plus.com/scottm/bryston.htm

Tyson · « **Reply #9 on:** 26 Apr 2004, 05:36 pm »

Here's my take, most speakers are designed to be "perfect" in sound from their designers, and they are passed to customers with the underlying assumption that the speakers are "perfect", and if the customer is not perfectly happy with the sound, it's not the speakers fault, it's the room, or the system matching that is the problem, but never the speakers. With VMPS, they are all designed to be "tunable" to the room, so the speakers can be adjusted to sound better for a given room and given equipment. This lets people understand that the speakers can be tweaked, just like anything else. They start with PR tuning and pot adjustments, and soon are doing other tweaks. I think this leads to the idea of more control on the customer's end of having the ability to make small improvements on their own. That's why it seems so many more people are in to tweaking the VMPS speakers, the very nature of their tunability encourages you down that path.

What you will notice is that most manufacturers have a "planned obsolescence" business model, where every year or so they come out with a "special edition" or "signature version" of whatever their current line is, or will have "new and improved" in some way. So, what are these improvements? Pretty much the same thing that the "tweakers" are already doing on their own. Just the way it is. . .

John Casler · « **Reply #10 on:** 26 Apr 2004, 07:00 pm »

Quote

I imagine John C and Brian C (and dealers in general) are twitching to answer, but I'm really interested in answers from people with no financial stake in my purchase. Thanks muchly!

I was wondering what that strange twitching feeling was?

While as most here know, I can "pen" reams about the VMPS line, but I think all of those above tell it like it is.

Maybe they're not for everyone, but neither is a Ferrari.

I remember buying my first DeTomaso Pantera years ago. Do you think I left the stock 266 HP engine alone?

When I got done, it was 440hp of pavement wrinkling BLUR, and sounded almost as good as my VMPS speakers. So the tweaks and mods are part of the game.

Getting the speaker is the first move. How you play the game after that is up to you, but it is very hard to do anything but WIN

As far as RM/x locations, I don't know of any RM/x's in New England. While over a year old, production initially was very slow so they are still a little sparse.

Obviously you liked the "sonics" of the Line Source type speakers (QLS-1) for many years.

VMPS will give you all the attributes you liked, "plus" much more.

ScottMayo · « **Reply #11 on:** 26 Apr 2004, 07:27 pm »

Quote

Obviously you liked the "sonics" of the Line Source type speakers (QLS-1) for many years.

And still do. If the wires on one of the dome high/midranges hadn't snapped (or if I could have found a replacement for it, ANYWHERE), I wouldn't be shopping. I bought them used, for 2k$, ~20 years ago, and having refoamed the woofers and hacked the circuitry to compensate for the missing driver, they still sound better than ANYTHING I have auditioned for under 10k$. (Admittedly, the Dali megalines on 4 Krell amps sounded a bit better, and they bloody well should at that price.)

Damn Infinity straight to hell, for abandoning the high end. (But I'm not BITTER or anything. *sob*)

Anyway, those QLS-1's are slated to be the surrounds in my new system. So the (proposed) RM/X's are going to be living straight across my living room from the best speakers I was ever able to afford, and if the elixirs suffer in comparison, I'm going to be very, very disappointed in all of you. And I will tell your mothers.

Anyone who knows someone who may know someone who sells drivers for Infinity QLS-1's, let me know. I'm in a lot of pain, here. (John Cato, the only source I found, doesn't have them.)

John B · « **Reply #12 on:** 26 Apr 2004, 07:34 pm »

Quote

I'm new to VMPS -

Being new to VMPS speakers myself, I can fully understand your intimidation with all the tweaks and tuning dials and puddy even

that present themselves with a purchase. I went with the 626Rs so thankfully I did'nt have to play with the putty, but from what I hear it's no big deal. As for tweaks I tried one that worked well, but it wouldn't be a factor in your large towers. The real challenge for me was the tuning pots. Not so when I first set them up, it was a fairly simple matter to dial them in. I even had Brian C over to check it out, and we adjusted them only slightly. However, speakers break in over time, and I've found their output can vary greatly over these break in periods. Yesterday I reached a spot where I just felt something was off. So I spent about 90 minutes re-tuning the pots. This was my biggest fear with VMPS speakers. That point where you went from enjoying the music to constantly tweaking to try and reach an optimum tune level, which even if you got it, would you even know it? The process turned out to be fun in the end, I got to the point where I could feel what I was doing both in the small incriments I was turning the pots, and in listening for the sonic changes. It does require some dedicated effort, and a willingness to experiment, to get to know your pots

but once you get the ear and feel for it, you can take your speakers to a higher level. It was like gettng a gear upgrade yesterday, when after that 90 minutes I found a spot where everything just sounded right. I'm happy with it, though I still have that nagging question, do I really have it right? I don't think you'll be able to totally get around that, as once you have the "driving stick", it's hard not to take the wheel every now and again to see what you can do with it.

I've very pleased with the sound, it's mroe accurate and musical than any speaker I've owned...which is basically, every Dynaudio Contour model floorstander and bookshelf that's been out in the past 6 years.

ctviggen · « **Reply #13 on:** 26 Apr 2004, 07:42 pm »

I always thought Dynaudios were good speakers -- a friend was looking for new speakers and we auditioned a ton of them, changing nothing but the speakers, and the Dynaudio beat everything in his price range (less than 6 grand) at that store.

Personally, I don't plan on spending a ton of time tweaking my RM40s/RM30C front line up. I plan on just seeing what the speakers are like. Also, I still have quite a bit of setup to do (tweaking my RPTV and setting the grey scale -- I bought a device for this; setting all the sound levels, reprogramming my Pronto after my hard drive, complete with all codes for all my gear, went down; etc.). Once I get through all that and I get used to the VMPS, I'll definitely modify at least the putty. But I think I want to get some room treatments before I attempt anything else (and redo the putty once I get the room treatments). I plan on a few hours of tweaking every 6 months or so. The plan is to listen and watch, not spend hours tweaking.

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #14 on:** 26 Apr 2004, 07:47 pm »

I don't own VMPS, but I've heard the RM40's, RM/X, and the 626R. They are extremely good speakers, but I don't think you should ever buy anything without hearing them, especially speakers. Are you going to the HE 2004 in NYC? Make an appt. to hear them at Roop's dealership in SoHo. I think he has RM30's and the RM/X's. If you are thinking of spending up to 12K on a speaker, it would seem reasonable you make a trip down to NYC to hear them.

Michael

jgubman · « **Reply #15 on:** 26 Apr 2004, 07:50 pm »

My RM-40s sounded great out of the box, fantastic after some putty adjustment, even better after some more putty adjustment and sublime after I turned down the pots ever so slightly.

I've experiemented w/ replacing the fiberglass w/ wool in my LRC, I didn't hear much of a difference so I've been too lazy to try w/ my RM-40s (lotta screws to undo!), but I can tell you w/o a doubt that the RM-40s w/ just the minimal putty/pot tweaking sound unbelievably good. Installing room treatments and experimenting w/ speaker height (LRC) and placement (LRC and RM-40s) yeilded much larger gains.

My brother-in-law just bought Dynaudio C2 speakers (retail ~$12k) and, to my ears the RM-40s best them in just about every way. Of course he feels differently, so YMMV.

ZMan · « **Reply #16 on:** 26 Apr 2004, 08:15 pm »

Long time reader, first reply !! (I go back to Harmonic "Distortion")
After a year of research and years of listening to equipment, particularly Ribbon/Plannar styles, I purchased a pair of RM2 NEO SE's sight unseen, in March of 2002. This step was taken after many years of wanting but not having the cash to do it right. VMPS Audio is, hands down, "The" outstanding audio value- each of their products is easily worth many times it's price.

I returned from NYC recently were I spent an afternoon in a very high end audio shop near Union Square listening to JM Utopia's and Diva's in systems costing 30 to 55 g's conservatively.

Opinion- bass was more articluate, sound stage slightly deeper, resolution/detail much less, clarity of sound the same, emotional envolvment significantly less!! Consider that I spent a total of 12.5 on my entire system. There was really no comparision at all. The only reason the high end system even had a few better attributes, I believe, was due to significant room treatment.

Beyond that, Audiophiles and Tweekers are an unusual lot, their passion for excellence and "Truth" is unwavering. Therefore lies the unending search for perfection. All things considered, I'm more than sure that you will be satified with a VMPS acquistion. I am also sure that if you heard my system you would be quite astonished. I am everytime I turn it on!

Notes:
Big B is like a Jazz Trumpeter- a virtuoso, but always evolving. If Ric Schultz is confident in a product then jump quick, he knows his stuff -Absolutely !!

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #17 on:** 26 Apr 2004, 09:03 pm »

Quote

My brother-in-law just bought Dynaudio C2 speakers (retail ~$12k) and, to my ears the RM-40s best them in just about every way. Of course he feels differently, so YMMV.

I've never heard the C-2 speakers, but I have heard the Dynaudio C-4 speakers about 5 times (the best time being with all Naim electronics) and to my ears and preferences they are better than any VMPS I have ever heard, including the RM/X, though I'll admit I'm sure I didn't hear the RM/X at their best. Thus, I'll restate that no speaker will be all things for all people. If you are spending 12K on a speaker, I'd consider it mandatory that you hear them. Certainly don't trust people on an audio forum to tell you what to buy, including anything that I say. That said, I will say that I think the RM40 is the best buy I have personally ever heard in speakers, but I don't know if you'll like them.

Michael

ekovalsky · « **Reply #18 on:** 26 Apr 2004, 09:06 pm »

Agree with an earlier post, that if you are considering purchase of the RM/X it is best to hear them first. A few dealers have them in their showrooms (Roop in NY & Julian in TX, at least), Big B has them in CA, and there are now several pairs in private hands, including mine in AZ. Lucius Morris in DC had the somewhat outdated ST3/SRE in his "reference system" as of a year ago, perhaps he now has the RM/X too ?

If you work with a dealer who displays them, I bet the cost of travel could be negotiated into the price if you end up purchasing from them.

Of course, I did not follow my own advice and purchased RM-40's and later RM-X unheard from Jim R. and John C., respectively. I talked a coworker of mine, who was about to spend big bucks on a top line B&W theater setup, into flying out to the SF Bay area to hear the VMPS line. After the audition he purchased a slew of RM-40's, 626, LRC, and subwoofers.

You will not have to mod the RM-X. I did put the wool in, and it may make a bit of difference for the better, but nothing dramatic at all. If you wanted it Big B could install it for you I'm sure. Hell, I have enough left over for another pair and could send it to him...

Like Ric said, every other "tweak" addresses issues with the RM-40 and lesser models and tries to bring them closer to the cost-no-object ideal of the RM-X.

I should also say, I'm a converted dipole lover. I never thought I'd part with my Apogee Divas until I got married and the heckling from the wife started

ctviggen · « **Reply #19 on:** 26 Apr 2004, 09:13 pm »

I've bought a lot of stuff sight unseen and unheard. I bought my Proceed AVP, my Jeff Rowland #10 2-channel amp, my Lexicon 512 5-channel amp (made by Bryston -- basically the 9B), my Pronto remote, my SV Sub, my Mirage rear speakers, my Pioneer Elite TV and DVD player, and now RM40s and RM30C, all sight unseen and unheard. I went strictly by opinions and research. I don't have the VMPS speakers, so I can't speak to them, but I like everything I bought so far. Come to think of it, other than my main speakers I have now, which I bought from a friend, I've not auditioned (listened to or seen) anything in my stereo/home theater system. I just ordered a Replay TV PVR, and I've never seen one or used one. Granted, speakers can be more divisive than amps or TVs, but I'm happy with the way my system's progressed.