[pureiso]

Ok, I am likely to ruffle some feathers with this but consider me a newbie and a skeptic when it comes to passive crossovers.

As far as the performance upgrades, is it more the brand of cap or is it the fact that the Sonicaps are handmatched to be near perfect values for L/R?  As far as the Erse vs. the Sonicap, is there really a huge difference?  Same for resistors?

It seems to be something unmeasurable, and I am unsure of if it is truly worth the difference in cost since both seem to be quality caps and resistors for both options...

[corndog71]

There's a real easy test:  Buy 2 different caps and listen to them yourself. 

There's nothing wrong with being skeptical.  Just don't get stuck on how things "should or should not matter" according to someone's opinion.  There's a lot of skeptics out there but many don't have the intestinal fortitude to actually back up their opinions with experience.

I just swapped a $10 cap for a $55 cap in my preamp and the difference was undeniable to me as well as everyone else I could get to sit down and listen.

It certainly helps that Danny matches caps for his customers.  But different brands certainly have different effects on the sound.  The application is important too.  A brand of cap that works well for say a tube preamp may not work so well in a speaker. (I've experienced this personally)

[Rclark]

I've upgraded capacitors in two sets of speakers and in my amplifier and there is without a doubt an audible improvement.

[pureiso]

There's a real easy test:  Buy 2 different caps and listen to them yourself. 

There's nothing wrong with being skeptical.  Just don't get stuck on how things "should or should not matter" according to someone's opinion.  There's a lot of skeptics out there but many don't have the intestinal fortitude to actually back up their opinions with experience.

I just swapped a $10 cap for a $55 cap in my preamp and the difference was undeniable to me as well as everyone else I could get to sit down and listen.

It certainly helps that Danny matches caps for his customers.  But different brands certainly have different effects on the sound.  The application is important too.  A brand of cap that works well for say a tube preamp may not work so well in a speaker. (I've experienced this personally)

I actually did a cap swap in my speakers but to be honest I cannot tell much of a difference if any.  Then again, I got rid of the center channel almost a month after because the quality of the speaker was not much to even make a comparison of.

Also, I probably should add I am likely to use the speakers for mostly home theater.  And they are running off of a Pioneer 1018AH, so no fancy tube or preamps here....

[Rclark]

 Not all caps are the same. If you replaced a minor cap with another relatively minor cap, likely no difference. Also it matters if you do the whole crossover, not just replace a cap here or there.

[Early B.]

I actually did a cap swap in my speakers but to be honest I cannot tell much of a difference if any.  Then again, I got rid of the center channel almost a month after because the quality of the speaker was not much to even make a comparison of.

Also, I probably should add I am likely to use the speakers for mostly home theater.  And they are running off of a Pioneer 1018AH, so no fancy tube or preamps here....

If you swapped out caps and are running those speakers with low end gear, don't expect to hear much difference, if at all.

[Danny Richie]

If you swapped out caps and are running those speakers with low end gear, don't expect to hear much difference, if at all.

This is very true.

While the difference in the sound of caps can vary quite a bit, if it is bottle necked by gear that will simply not allow the difference to be heard then there is little value in it.

I sent out some speakers not long ago with two crossovers inside. One is the stock crossover and one was upgraded with higher quality parts.

Read all about it here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=87808.0

The just of it was that the few people that heard little to no difference were using some type of budget system. In all other systems everyone reported hearing clear differences.

These are still available for demo.

Using a top level system the differences, especially in caps, are not subtle. Types vary greatly as do applications. I am always on the look out for higher quality caps for better prices. So far the Sonicaps are a favorite as they allow the greatest levels of resolution without colorization and are still reasonable. 

Differences in resistors are more subtle though, but clear differences. Some resistors like the cheap sand caste type can be much worse than others though.

Differences in various air core inductors are often subtle. Foil inductors typically top the list with high quality OFC from Erse and Solen being not far behind. But most Chinese made inductors including those from Jantzen use recycled Copper and are a level below. Iron core types used in the circuit cover mid-range or higher frequency ranges are also a level or two below.

When in doubt the best thing to do is listen for yourself.

[pureiso]

If you swapped out caps and are running those speakers with low end gear, don't expect to hear much difference, if at all.

Well, the speaker was terrible by itself.  A tiny Jamo center channel...

Has anyone sent in a speaker to Danny for a redesign of the crossover before?  My new center channel probably could benefit from it.

[Danny Richie]

Has anyone sent in a speaker to Danny for a redesign of the crossover before?

Easily into the hundreds of times.

[pureiso]

Easily into the hundreds of times.

Just a quick post before I PM you about it, but do you usually charge component cost or is there a bit more cost involved than that?  It is for a single center channel (actually it is the Loki kit from Madisound), so I am just wondering if there is a rough ballpark figure or if this would be better to move to PM?

[Danny Richie]

Just a quick post before I PM you about it, but do you usually charge component cost or is there a bit more cost involved than that?  It is for a single center channel (actually it is the Loki kit from Madisound), so I am just wondering if there is a rough ballpark figure or if this would be better to move to PM?

You are in luck. I have already designed a crossover for that speaker. A customer had already tried several networks that were designed for that speaker including one from Vance Dickenison. He was not happen with any of them and brought the speaker to me. I then designed a new network for it.

So I can send you all the parts you need for that speaker.

[pureiso]

You are in luck. I have already designed a crossover for that speaker. A customer had already tried several networks that were designed for that speaker including one from Vance Dickenison. He was not happen with any of them and brought the speaker to me. I then designed a new network for it.

So I can send you all the parts you need for that speaker.

If you could send me a quick PM or email with that, that would be awesome!  Something to get my hands dirty after I get a nice audition of the N2s you sent out.  I have to say I am quite happy with the Loki for center channel duties, but I am extremely excited to see the N2s in action.  The only issue is convincing my wife that a pair of the N3S are a necessary purchase this year...

[pureiso]

Going back to the original question, I think I worded it badly.

As far as the Erse vs. Sonicaps, since I imagine they both were chosen for how good they were at the pricepoint, how large is the performance gap between the two?  Also, how large is the gap between Sonicaps with and without Platinum bypass caps?

Since I still have yet to hear the test speakers, I am just trying to wrap my mind around some of the different options.

I did some homemade NoRez, and the change is definitely audible.  However, the science behind it makes complete sense so I kind of expected that.

As for the caps, it is still tough for me to understand these minute differences in materials have a large effect on the overall sound.  Then again, the crossover and speakers generally are where the largest measurements in distortion are going to occur in the chain.  So once again, is it the fact that the caps are handmatched and high quality?  Or are the Erse just marginally worse?

[corndog71]

Anytime you add something to the signal path it will have an effect.  The better components just do less damage to the signal. 

Erse caps are pretty good but don't quite have the resolution that sonicaps have.  If you haven't heard the Sonicaps you could very well be happy with Erse.  I'm a bit picky and am willing to spend a little extra for the better sound.

For years I knew caps made a difference in tube electronics but never really gave much thought to speaker crossovers.  I kinda bought into the marketing of popular speaker brands about how good their stuff really was.

Then I discovered AV123 and by extension Danny and decided to hear for myself if upgrading the caps and resistors and using No Rez lived up to the hype.  For me they absolutely did.  It took a while for me to come to grips about the prices but ultimately I felt they're worth it.  With a cheap or poorly designed crossover you are NOT hearing how good your speaker really is.

It's not just Danny's speakers I've witnessed this with either.  After raving to my friends about the improvements I heard, they asked if I could try it out on their admittedly cheaper speakers.

I upgraded a couple pairs of cheap Polk towers.  In the Polks I used Erse caps and coils with Mills resistors.  I also added No Rez to one of the pairs.  I didn't match the caps but the coils and resistors are 1% and measured the same.  In the end my friends loved the change and felt they got better resolution, dynamics, power handling, and lower distortion.  And they felt they saved a lot of money over buying new speakers.

[Æ]

sand caste type

So sand caste is a lesser caste? Must be imported from India.

[Hank]

Danny is a MUCH better designer than speller

[Danny Richie]

Funny thing is that Google chrome will highlight misspelled words as I type them. But if I typo something that still makes another word then I may not ever notice it. And I am good at typo's.