[blakep]

Here is the result of the wonderful "Guru" alignment:

 

It looks really, really bad to me.

This  one has the inner null point at 57.431 and the out one at 129.365. The  "Guru" alignmnet from bacobits1's link downloads a template called the  "Guru", but it measures as a Baerwald, 65.998/120.891
 
 Something is afowl here.
 
 Also, I see the vinylengine should give some credit to where they got  the Excel file to display the curves. Not very nice to "borrow" and not  credit the author

Wayner

Wayner: The Guru uses a basic Baerwald protractor as a template but if you follow the instructions for the Guru it involves then moving the stylus back about 1.27 mm to the "Guru" null points (which are on the linked to protractor).

Those null points as a result of the repositioning are not specified but a couple of guys smarter than me (Brian Kearns and John Ellison) have been able to establish that the null points are as detailed on the chart which I linked to.

[Wayner]

OK, my bad, but on the template (from www.vacuumstate.com), there are no instructions to do so. Anyway, It's a bad alignment IMHO.

Wayner

[bacobits1]

Ok, going back to DB Protractor settings, Until I can check out "Wayner's Wares". What would we do without all you techie people who love Geometry/ Math!!!
Always excellent info for the most part here on AC. Thanks guys!

Den 

[neobop]

Ok, going back to DB Protractor settings, Until I can check out "Wayner's Wares". What would we do without all you techie people who love Geometry/ Math!!!
Always excellent info for the most part here on AC. Thanks guys!

Den

The DB protractor gives you a Baerwald alignment. IMO it doesn't get any better.

neo

[bacobits1]

Using the Baerwald alignment now, but not set with using the DB Protractor.
I set it with another "Arc" Protractor and it made a big difference in presentation to the same degree that the "Guru" alignment made.
Overhang was off for quite some time here with those universal sheety paper jobs. 
(from enjoy the music)

D

[neobop]

Wayner: The Guru uses a basic Baerwald protractor as a template but if you follow the instructions for the Guru it involves then moving the stylus back about 1.27 mm to the "Guru" null points (which are on the linked to protractor).

Those null points as a result of the repositioning are not specified but a couple of guys smarter than me (Brian Kearns and John Ellison) have been able to establish that the null points are as detailed on the chart which I linked to.

Blakep,
Those distortion figures, offset angles, etc will change with different length arms. That's probably why the figures don't agree with other calculations that debunked the alignment.

Funny, read that explanation at vacuumstate and you think this is something you've got to try. What a waste of time. Good argument against subjective conclusions. I guess you have to consider the source. BTW, they referred to Baerwald as the Cotter alignment. This must have been in the late '70s when Mitch Cotter was making high end electronics. His TT was basically a Japanese DD w/custom base etc.

neo

[neobop]

Bacobits,
Yea, if you make the hole off-center..... 
Just for the record, the DB protractor isn't paper. Just so people don't get the wrong idea.

Arc protractors are easier to use. As long as your spindle/pivot is exact. If unsure, maybe you should check it.

neo

[BobM]

You know, I've played with my alignment quite a bit over the years. What I've learned, in a nutshell, is that the initial alignment can usually be improved, no matter how much time and effort you've put into it to begin with. Give it a week or so afterwards then go back and check again. then check again, then check again. Obviously this is more important with a fine line stylus than with a Grado, but very small changes can reap sonic rewards.

It's a process, not a one step job.

[Minn Mark]

Neobop, Wayner, et al,

I've got a DB systems protractor, but honestly have always had trouble understanding the supplied directions. I also have a Geodisc, which I have also used. I have SOTA Comet, and Pro-ject Debut III TT's.  Do you have a different (read "better" ) set of instructions for the DB? My problem is that, following the directions, I typically set the cartridge correctly at the "outer" markings (sorry I'm at work and dont have the DB w/ me), then when I try to align at the "inner" markings, I find I must move the protractor in order to get the alignment. Is this right?  Checking my handiwork with the geodisc shows I seem to be optimized for the alignment, but I've never been quite sure.  Dont really have anybody locally to turn to so you guys at AC and your advice are extremely helpful.  Thanks in advance and best wishes for your Happy New Year.


Mark

[bacobits1]

Yup, and it's not "reading comprehension" either.
I must have read those instructions 20X 

D

[BaMorin]

Neobop, Wayner, et al,

I've got a DB systems protractor, but honestly have always had trouble understanding the supplied directions. I also have a Geodisc, which I have also used. I have SOTA Comet, and Pro-ject Debut III TT's.  Do you have a different (read "better" ) set of instructions for the DB? My problem is that, following the directions, I typically set the cartridge correctly at the "outer" markings (sorry I'm at work and dont have the DB w/ me), then when I try to align at the "inner" markings, I find I must move the protractor in order to get the alignment. Is this right?  Checking my handiwork with the geodisc shows I seem to be optimized for the alignment, but I've never been quite sure.  Dont really have anybody locally to turn to so you guys at AC and your advice are extremely helpful.  Thanks in advance and best wishes for your Happy New Year.


Mark

Yes, you will have to move the protractor. What makes the protactor so easy to use is the degree scale to show how far off forward or rearward of optimum overhang the cart "might" be

[bacobits1]

Sorry, I don't agree. Mine was at 0 degrees and set perfect to both marks, perfect straight to the grid. You can move that cartridge any way you want it and in any position in the slots and still align on those marks. The overhang will be different won't they, if at different positions in the slots? Those marks must be drawn on an Arc with the mounting figures.
The settings I have now do not, did not match the Db.
Again, WTF? You need an Arc Protractor specific to the to set the overhang, Pivot to Spindle overhang distance.

Geo Disk and some of the custom expensive mirror arc protractors will work only if you can precisely align the center pivot line scribed on the protractor to the tonearm pivot at the actual mounting distance. "Precisely" is the word here. That's not going to happen accurately. You can't "eye ball" it.
It took me all weekend to comprehend this correctly.

Oh, BTW my advice, Wayner knows what he is doing.
Excellent design and ingenious.
Purchase one and throw everything else out!

D

[neobop]

Yes, you will have to move the protractor. What makes the protactor so easy to use is the degree scale to show how far off forward or rearward of optimum overhang the cart "might" be

Yea, the DB is a nice protractor - easy to use, once you understand the scaling. The Geodisc uses the same Baerwald alignment (as does Dennesen) so you can check one against the other.

neo

[neobop]

Sorry, I don't agree. Mine was at 0 degrees and set perfect to both marks, perfect straight to the grid. You can twist that cartridge any way you want it and in any position in the slots and still align on those marks. The overhang will be different won't they, if at different positions in the slots? Those marks must be drawn on an Arc with the mounting figures.
The settings I have now do not, did not match the Db.
Again, WTF? You need an Arc Protractor specific to the to set the overhang, Pivot to Spindle overhang distance.

Geo Disk and some of the custom expensive mirror arc protractors will work only if you can precisely align the center pivot line scribed on the protractor to the tonearm pivot at the actual mounting distance. "Precisely" is the word here. That's not going to happen accurately. You can't "eye ball" it.
It took me all weekend to comprehend this correctly.

Oh, BTW my advice, Wayner knows what he is doing.
Excellent design and ingenious.
Purchase one and throw everything else out!

D

Your first paragraph makes no sense. There's only one position that will be aligned at both grids. Also, overhang will change with different alignments.

If you're getting good results with Wayner's system, I suggest you stick with it.

neo

[jazdoc]

I've had very good success with the Best Tractor product from MintLP.  http://mintlp.com/best.htm

The protractor is individualized for turntable and arm.  The difference in going from 'very good' alignment to 'spot on' is extraordinary and worth the investment.

[blakep]

I've had very good success with the Best Tractor product from MintLP.  http://mintlp.com/best.htm

The protractor is individualized for turntable and arm.  The difference in going from 'very good' alignment to 'spot on' is extraordinary and worth the investment.

I have a Mint LP which I bought after doing an alignment with a protractor I generated using Conrad Hoffman's software.

Using a 20X illuminated loupe with both, the Mint essentially confirmed the alignment using the Hoffman protractor and, to be honest, I find the Hoffman protractor easier to use visually if it is printed on high quality photo paper, laminated and taped to a scrap record. Total cost: price of photo paper and a couple of bucks for lamination.

The Mint is a good product though and certainly a lot more impressive to look at.

http://www.conradhoffman.com/chsw.htm

[BobM]

Hey Wayne, with all of this good info on VTA/SRA and anti-skate, when are you going to tackle Azimuth adjustment and start a discussion?