[doug s.]

Quote from: SonicReducer on Today at 06:29 PM
Regarding the integrated amps, I'm not sure what to tell you. If you still think that the only similarities they have is that they're solid state and integrated, then I can only assume that you haven't actually spent much time looking at the specs and features. I'll say AGAIN that while I freely admit that I could be wrong about any of the amps being rebadges, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see more than a few similarities between them.

Quote from: srb on Today at 06:39 PM
Each time you repeat that (and believe me, it's been excruciatingly often), I couldn't disagree with you more.  On this particular point, I don't think you're going to find anyone that agrees with you.

thanks, steve.  i didn't think i was the odd man out, here.   

doug s.

[doug s.]

Regarding the integrated amps, I'm not sure what to tell you. If you still think that the only similarities they have is that they're solid state and integrated, then I can only assume that you haven't actually spent much time looking at the specs and features.

so...  when you are sitting there w/your eyes closed receiving oral sex, it doesn't matter if it's a hot 20-something chick, the men's football coach, your grandmother, your brother or your mom or dad doing the deed?  after all, the "specs & features" are the same, how can you tell the difference?   
the only similarity between those amps you mentioned is due to their function.  the only similarity between my other example is, well, never mind... 

doug s.

[K Shep]

thanks, steve.  i didn't think i was the odd man out, here.   

No you're not the odd man out.  There are many members who would love to jump in and agree with you and steve but I think you gentlemen are handling the festivities just fine, besides I wouldn't want to pile on.

[SonicReducer]

Well, Doug, actually YOU give the best oral sex! Why be so modest?!

[JohnR]

From a business angle, I find it odd that a manufacturer would go to all the trouble of designing completely unique circuitry but packaging it in exactly the same way (almost identical layouts and features) as his (numerous) competitors. Would it not make more marketing sense to add or even subtract features, or give the consumer a different aesthetic, or do anything at all to differentiate the product?

Hi - a couple of thoughts here. In the example of the 60W integrated, I'd suggest that they are being made with that feature set partly because that is how they have been for decades. Also, these components are likely to be sold when somebody walks into a hifi store and says "I want a good stereo" and walks out with 4 or 5 boxes. Hey, I've done just that (NAD in my case, many years ago). Manufacturers like Rotel and Cambridge have every single type of component in several pricing/feature tiers. Odd-ball components will work against sales in that market. This seems like sensible, if boring, marketing to me... I'm guessing that the Atoll (never heard of them before) thinks itself as the "boutique" choice for the same market.

The other thought is that the innovation that I see comes from the really tiny manufacturers... like Virtue Audio, who have a circle here. Their little integrated amps are nothing at all like the examples you've given - have a look

[viggen]

I'd just add that a lot of times accountants make more engineering decisions than engineers do.  I think this is why you have a lot of me too products.

When you work in a larger company, it probably doesn't pay to do things differently.

[SonicReducer]

You're probably 100% correct that the similarities between the amps (and there ARE similarities) are more marketing-driven. My post on the integrated amps was speculative from the beginning. The striking similarities in feature-sets initially seemed to point to OEM outsourcing, but without proof, I'll accept the marketing angle. If I were in the market to buy, however, I'd still give them all a listen.

[doug s.]

Well, Doug, actually YOU give the best oral sex! Why be so modest?!

so, you have done blind a-b testing?   

aw shucks, sonic, ok i'll admit it, & brag a bit - i have been known to do cunning little stunts with stunning little...  oh, never mind...     

doug s.

[macrojack]

sonic reducer - If you ever want to buy something and if you ever feel uncertain about the product in question, why not post then asking about the integrity of the product and the manufacturer at that time. You seem to want a catalog of who's who and what's what for everything being offered today. To the best of my knowledge no such catalog exists. Perhaps you should compile one. However, I would say, having read a lot of the responses here, that it would probably not sell well.

This whole thread comes off as an academic exercise.

[JackD201]

Sonic,

You know what WOULD be fun and informative for everyone? Go out and build yourself a new system full of "originals" and furnish a list of all the "rebadges" you rejected.

One man can change the world. Perhaps it's your time to lay down the example. Now stop arguing and just prove all of us naysayers wrong.

Jack

[TheChairGuy]

Geez - tough group 

Nothing our OP, SonicReducer, has proposed is terrible....it's perhaps just not practical and the act of rebadging is likely less frequent than the recent example of the OPPO and Lexicon suggest.

Let's lay off the shots, guys - he just doesn't deserve it.  He's a fellow audiophool looking for a bargain and brought a topic important to him up on an audiophool forum....there's no horm nor foul in that.

SR, hang in there bud, not everyone here is a tormentor and/or adversarial here.  As I hope I communicated well enough earlier - I don't actually support your assertion that rebadging is widespread - but, I support you coming forward to create a discussion about it 

Ciao, John

[timind]

Geez - tough group 

Nothing our OP, SonicReducer, has proposed is terrible....it's perhaps just not practical and the act of rebadging is likely less frequent than the recent example of the OPPO and Lexicon suggest.

Let's lay off the shots, guys - he just doesn't deserve it.  He's a fellow audiophool looking for a bargain and brought a topic important to him up on an audiophool forum....there's no horm nor foul in that.

SR, hang in there bud, not everyone here is a tormentor and/or adversarial here.  As I hope I communicated well enough earlier - I don't actually support your assertion that rebadging is widespread - but, I support you coming forward to create a discussion about it 

Ciao, John

Agree completely. Although the argumentative nature of most SR posts isn't helping his cause. As I stated earlier, I have opened up plenty of pieces from numerous manufacturers and aside from the cdp clones I mentioned haven't seen any similarities that weren't advertised. I don't believe the practice is all that rampant. Designing a 60 watt audio amplifier isn't all that difficult.
My suggestion is to take the examples given and post them in a thread without all the bickering.
One more thing for Doug S. The proper reply to the comment concerning your oral abilities is "So your wife's been talking about me eh?"

[macrojack]

One of our members has a signature quote stating that "If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, first you must create the universe". This is the crux of the issue. Nothing manmade is utterly and completely original. To some degree there will be copycat and mimicry. The search for offending copycats can lead nowhere. Certainly there are blatant examples but the consensus here would indicate that these are very rare or very good copies. Either way, no serious harm is being done. The really odious attempts are ferreted out with dispatch it seems. So I fail to see the need for a vigilante door to door search for fraud at this point in time. Caveat emptor.

[SonicReducer]

TheChairGuy:

Thanks, I appreciate the support. What I'm proposing is indeed wildly impractical (if not impossible) for an individual, considering the fact that I'm advocating greater information sharing. I've already said everything else fifty times, so I'll just add that I think if today's enthusiasts adopted a tougher, more skeptical approach less steeped in mystique, then the hobby would go a long way towards attracting younger generations weaned on information sharing and transparency - but that's another thread (ha!).

[viggen]

Knowing is half the battle.

If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles.

[*Scotty*]

 I don't see that much mystique attached to the affordable gear in the market place. From my point of view it is all just electronic gear, not magic. I am attracted to actual sonic performance not the name or the face-plate. This being said, I can see where the uninformed or the lazy consumer will buy on the basis of brand name,looks or Internet buzz,all of which maybe roughly equivalent to "mystique".
The biggest problem I can see facing the audio consumer today is the loss of brick and mortar stores. Twenty years ago a consumer seeking information could go to two or three stores and hear perhaps 75% of the gear available at a given price point. Nowadays there are more brands available and almost no way to gain an overview of how a lot of the gear compares to one another sonically. I don't consider internet anecdotes a substitute for hearing a component with my own ears. Even if we know when gear cloning has happened it won't be relevant unless the cloned technology is worth owning in the first place.
Scotty