[SonicReducer]

For what it's worth, the Lexus IS250 is based on the Toyota Altezza (not sold in the US), and the Infiniti G37 is based on the same platform as the 370Z. The reason I'm getting off-topic is due to the fact that I was able to find this information in minutes. On the other hand, good luck in trying to find out the names of other Japanese "big-box" companies that design and build products for boutique, high-end audio companies. The information is "out there" somewhere, but until the sharing of this information becomes common practice (and more commonly available), the Lexicon/Oppo situation is simply going to play out again and again (with most instances going wholly unnoticed).

[doug s.]

my point re: lexus/infiiniti, is that they do offer product not awailable in their down market brands here in the states.  there's lotsa cool nissans & toyotas in japan that we never see.  and, if you are wanting a 5 passenger rwd sedan, the 370z yust doesn't cut it.     now, if the altima were offered in a rwd platform at nissan pricing, i might be interested...

in general, tho, i do understand your point, and i do not like paying for a label.  tho, i suppose that there are some red rose music customers that like to brag about how much they paid for their gear; and they may not want the dusson equivalents at 25% of the price, even if they knew about it.

doug s.

[planet10]

Back to the Wadia/Onkyo iPod thingees... From the take apart here, it is clear that the Onkyo is a big step up in engineering & execution. Economies of scale bring it in at about half the price!!.

dave

PS: Apple makes more money licensing Made for iPod than they do on iPods, you can be sure there is a nice licence for Apple in each one of these. Just shows how big an industry Apple has created, huge economic spinoff.

[mort]

In my 20's I worked as a tour guide for the Rainier Brewery, while we produced Rainier we also secreatly brewed several micros. Naturaly the micros did not want this to get out so we all had to sign confidentiality papers. My point is that we will never know, the extent this may actualy influence the products we buy. That would be terrible for bussiness and reputations. They want us to remain in blissfull ignorance. In the case of Rainier different ingredients and brewing prosseses were used and most beer drinkers could tast the difference between a bottle of Rainier and a bottle of fat tire. However I dont believe that most audio consumers could preform the same with theire ears particularily out of a A/B situation. Are we getting a bargin on the rebaged item of a lower cost or are we beeing riped off when purchasing the item with the golden name. I believe it's the latter. Better interior parts cost more and cant be made cheeper.

[JackD201]

How about the other way around where the high end designers get hired by the mass market producers?

Many companies enlist the talents of outside engineers many with their own companies some without non-disclosure agreements and some without. The likes of John Curl with ML and Parasound, Tim de Paravancini for Lux Corp Japan, John Ulrich planned to licenced out his PWM tech, Albert Von Schweikert for driver design for many mass market brands and XO work for some other high end speaker makers. Some designers made their mark doing modifications such as Paravancini and Levinson on Studer decks and consoles respectively. Viktor Khomenko of BAT has done amp design work for Onkyo/Integra. Ken Ishiwata headlines Marantz. Alex Paychev of APL is rumored to be in talks with Esoteric Teac.

That's just the US. Japan is a hotbed of activity. Luxman alone has spun off engineers that have gone on to form great companies like BaLabo.

It all isn't cloak and dagger especially when it comes to phono cartridges. Lyra's main man apprenticed for Koetsu's main man. Matsudaira of M.Y. Sonic Labs designed the Air Tight carts. Was it Supex and Monster Cable?

The only reason there is more info on platform sharing in the automotive industry is because it is simply a larger industry filled made up of mostly publicly listed corporations that require greater disclosure. Yet it is not common knowledge that Americans have been responsible for the improved styling of the likes of Volvo and VW the last two decades even as the US automobile industry continues to suffer in this department for the most part.

Goldmund came under fire some time back for doing almost exactly what Lexicon did with a DVD player.

MY point is, in the end a product has to be able to stand on it's own according to its own merits. Frankly, I don't care who designed it as long as it does what it's supposed to do. I don't know the name of the guys who designed my car or the architect of the building I live in but I'm happy with both. About the merits, these merits may be just aesthetic, performance based or a combination of both. The company comes into play for value assessments like warranties and resale value not performance per se albeit branding does play a factor when compiling any short list I make. Every famous company comes out with a dog or a lemon every now and then anyway so brand or company history is only a part of the final decision.

For the rich Lexicon owner who just has to have a "matched" stack, he may not really care even if he did know it was an Oppo inside. All the fancy aluminum and suddenly a plasticky slim thing in the rack just might not look right. Personally I don't care, I've been using Sony and Pioneer in front of my processors from the very beginning. While I find what Lexicon did in poor taste, I'm not passing judgement on someone who buys the infamous model even if he does know what's inside. If he thinks the extra dough spent on the "looks" is worth it to him, heck I respect that. If I did come across someone that didn't know but bought one, I wouldn't feel like I had a mission to inform him and rain on his parade. After all the Oppo is a great player and the guy is likely to get the exact enjoyment he's supposed to. Perversely, at the very least Lexicon sought out what's arguably the best all around budget Universal BDP out there. They could have done a lot worse.

I got all this info just surfing around over the years so I do not believe there is any conspiracy out there. If one is interested enough and patient enough connections are easy to make. Count me in as a wary buyer. Due diligence is always good practice for any investment. I've alway's considered it my responsibility to myself and my family.

[JimJ]

Yet it is not common knowledge that Americans have been responsible for the improved styling of the likes of Volvo and VW the last two decades even as the US automobile industry continues to suffer in this department for the most part.

Ugh, don't get me started on new Volvos...

[JackD201]

I did say styling not engineering 

[pjchappy]

In my 20's I worked as a tour guide for the Rainier Brewery, while we produced Rainier we also secreatly brewed several micros. Naturaly the micros did not want this to get out so we all had to sign confidentiality papers.

That reminds me. . . When I used to wait tables at a restaurant in a very wealthy St. Louis area neighborhood, the place served their own special, custom made beer.  It was actually just Beck's Dark.   


Paul

[JLM]

Going the cottage/internet route should reduce the question of value, rebadging, and markups.  Distribution of retailing amounts to 75% of the MSRP.  The internet "talk on the street" usually digs out the rats in time.  All my shopping started at AudioCircle or other audio message boards:

My amps come from Channel Island Audio (see his circle below and I bought them used).  My transport came from AV123 (see their circle "hidden" below) after a 50% markdown.  My speakers come from Bob Brines (a one man outfit in Arkansas) with driver mods from Bud Purvine (who did them on a moonlighting basis).  My Behringer DEQ2496 (MSRP of $350) was bought used from a guy here at AC and then modded by Scott Endler (another moonlighter).  Scott also provided my attenuators and all the signal cabling.  My power cords are Volex (about $15 delivered each).

Another pieve of mine is the tiny amount of money that goes into the working guts of equipment.  Frank Van Alstine (see his circle below) agrees with this.  Speakers are perhaps the classic example.  Most $1,000 MSRP speakers have maybe $50 worth of drivers/crossover components.  Most of the material (and by far labor) cost goes into the veneer which typically is far better than anything in the rest of the proud owner's home.

[viggen]

and, if you are wanting a 5 passenger rwd sedan, the 370z yust doesn't cut it.   
doug s.

How'za bout z Maxima?

edit:  errr they are no longer rwd.

[SonicReducer]

JackD201:

I disagree about the availability of rebadging information. You mention Lexicon and Goldmund, but these are well-worn examples with which many people are familiar. Think about the literally hundreds of tiny, boutique audio companies out there that have perhaps a handful of employees (at best). I can practically guarantee that very few of them have the ability to either design or manufacture their own products. You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to understand the pervasiveness of rebadging in high-end audio. The specific information, however, is very difficult to find.

I think that it's only partly true that people are more aware of rebadging in the auto industry because the automakers are huge, publicly-traded companies. I think the other half of that equation involves the consumers themselves, who seem far less willing to blindly place their trust in the manufacturers and their products. The high-end audio industry continues to be steeped in pretentious, pre-Internet BS, and I would argue that it's only been recently that its consumers have really begun to wonder what they're paying for aside from a pretty case or nice cabinets.

My point is that while I would like to be a proactive, diligent consumer in this industry, the reality is that rebadging information is scant. I think it's great that you threw out the Goldmund example, but have you actually found other examples? If so, then please share them.

[JackD201]

Well Red Rose was thrown out there too but really did you stop to consider that perhaps the reason there aren't so many scandals is because they are actually very few and far between? I mean take CD players. Almost all high end CD players source their transports from a handful of OEM suppliers and the same goes for their DAC chips. Does this mean that if your CDP uses the same transport and say Burr Brown found in a Sony or Philips that your player is rebadged and therefore you could have saved some dough and gone for the S or P? The answer is obviously no because changing the analog output stage and power supplies makes such a big difference in final sound quality and performance that it can considered a totally different product even if that means actually having them in the exact chassis, Oppos from Modwright and Denons from Exemplar are popular examples of this. For me to consider an item to be rebadged at the very least the innards would have to be exactly the same.

Now I haven't opened up every single piece of gear I own much less have I opened up those of others but one thing is for sure is that I have never come across audio equipment that sounds exactly alike even within the same family of products, granted I've never owned the Lexicon or the Goldmund. This begs the question. How would one be expected to go about finding these impostors?

Surely the rebadgers won't admit it so some intrepid crusader must go and buy the impostors first then go and find the originals. Personally I'll just look out for myself. I know it sounds selfish but I'm no crusader. If I did find something however yes I would share it here. Perhaps this is your calling why don't you go out and find some for all of us.

On looking out for myself. Take Simaudio's brand spanking new processor. I spy with my beady eyes. Does the display lay out look curiously like Denon's flagship? Sure does. It probably has some Denon stuff in there aside from just the screen. I wouldn't jump the gun and call it a rebadge however until I get to first listen to both of them. If I was really serious in contemplating plunking down large green for the Moon, I WOULD take a listen to the Denon. I would not be a total a-hole however and take apart two loaners out of common respect to the dealers. I'll leave that to the true journalists who are allowed to open them up.

[Kevin Haskins]

The actual manufacturing is less of an issue than the engineering.   You can have any number of ODMs in China manufacture something for you.   Manufacturing has become an outsourcing activity and even many chip companies are becoming "fabless".   It just means that they own the engineering and IP but they outsource the actual manufacturing of the chip.

For high-end audio, if you have the board design and BOM you could easily have literally hundreds of different places populate, test and manufacture boards in volume.    There are many hundreds of places that will build boxes, install boards, test and package it for resale.    In high-end audio the economies of scale significantly impact pricing.   Also the target customer can be a challenge (they are pickier and cost more to service).   So there are reasons that companies have different price models simply because the cost of a product is only partially the nuts and bolts you receive when you buy a product.   The retail price is a combination of ALL of the cost of doing business and transacting sales for an item.     

For me.... I design all my own stuff.   I outsource manufacturing of some items (PCBs & population), I do final assembly in-house and I utilize items that I recognize are better engineered and sourced from others.   For example... I use Hypex for Class D amps because they do a better job than I would do engineering it from scratch, they have economy of scale working for them in manufacturing and they have a half dozen engineers on staff to better cover areas of specialty.   

The bottom line is that if you want high-end audio to remain a viable market segment with transparency in what you are purchasing you should reward the companies that service your needs.   The reality is that none of these companies manufacture everything in-house and none of them do all their in-house engineering.    If they do I'd question their decision making because there are only so many different things that you can effectively accomplish with a given staff.   

[SonicReducer]

JackD201/Kevin Haskins:

My search for information regarding rebadging is hardly a crusade, and is far more pragmatic than idealistic. I accept the reality of rebadging. I accept the reality of outsourcing. I understand that even though a company may base, for instance, an amp on an existing JVC model, that this company may also perform certain modifications that make their particular product sound better than the JVC.

However.

There seems to be an odd sort of circularity to many of the arguments that I'm reading. The general gist is that 1): Finding such information is impossible; 2): Even if it were possible, it would be useless because every product sounds different; 3) Even if the products sound the same, the customer is actually getting higher quality service, a better warranty, or a shinier case for the extra money spent; 4) Even if the customer is not getting these extras, he bought the item for its sound and so should enjoy it anyway; 5) If he doesn't enjoy the item because he, say, paid $3,000 more than he could have paid, then it's his own damn fault for not being a diligent consumer. At this point, we have come full circle and now find ourselves at the first point.

Whatever happened to the savvy, educated consumer? Why so much apology for the Lexicons of the world? How can you pretend to be so business savvy and then turn around and tell me that the only reason we don't have more Lexicon scandals is because you're pretty sure that these all of these tiny little brands driven solely by mystique and few dollars worth of hardware packed into attractive, overbuilt cases have your best interests at heart?

You see, this is why high-end audio continues to die a slow death. Mystique. BS. Pretentiousness. Snake oil. Snob appeal. Elitism. Wishful thinking. Technophilia. Childish bemusement by the magical wonder of new audio gear. You don't have to agree with me, of course. The marketplace is in the process of dragging high-end audio kicking and screaming into the Internet age, and many of the newer, smaller companies are at least somewhat open about which transports they use, which DACs they use, which drivers they use, etc. In the meantime, however, I hardly think it's too much to ask that people have some inkling as to what they're buying.

Knowing just how many of these small companies JVC or Pioneer or Sony makes gear for is far from impossible. In the two industries that I keep referencing - the home appliance industry and the auto industry - consumers are far more willing to dig a little deeper, to trade more information, to - and this is important - have less reverence and more skepticism regarding the manufacturers. They want to know what's beneath the hood or the casing, and they expect more transparency from manufacturers. They're more diligent, more proactive and less gullible.

No, not every rebadge is a straight-up name swap like the Lexicon/Oppo situation. Yeah, sure, maybe each and every tiny high-end brand buys their amps from big companies but changes the power supply and few bits and pieces. I suppose it really depends on what you value. If, for instance, an amp is 90% JVC and 10% Naim mods, is that 10% and the "prestigious" name worth the huge mark-up? Some people have enough money not to care, and I understand that.

In the final analysis, all I can hope for, really, is that the free exchange of information on the Internet will eventually catch up with high-end audio and drag it back to earth. I think it's happening, but I continue to be amazed that more people just don't even seem that interested in having more information at hand to make better consumer choices. It's as though they just don't want to be told that Santa doesn't exist, and that these tiny companies don't all operate out of the goodness of their hearts because they just love the music so darn much...golly.

So, if you want to share any info, please do, and if not, then have a nice day.

[doug s.]

You see, this is why high-end audio continues to die a slow death. Mystique. BS. Pretentiousness. Snake oil. Snob appeal. Elitism. Wishful thinking. Technophilia. Childish bemusement by the magical wonder of new audio gear. You don't have to agree with me, of course.

on this point i do not at all agree with you.  hi-end audio has always been the pursuit of the lunatic-fringe audio enthusiast, since its inception, and the same holds true today.  if hi-end is "continuing to die a slow death", it has been since it began.  myself, being a relative latecomer to "hi-end", have only been reading about its impending doom for a bit over twenty-five years.   

ymmv,

doug s.

[SonicReducer]

Let me put it this way: I think high-end audio is going through some wrenching changes, and I hope that some of these changes are for the better. I think that I would actually like the industry better if indeed it were more "lunatic fringe" and less "posh audio boutique". Audio will always have a super high-end market where prestige value eclipses actual dollar value, but to me too much of the industry still looks to this niche for guidance. I would much rather have the inmates (engineers) running the asylum than the guards (marketers)...

[S Clark]

Back to the original question.  Is the Oppo/Lexicon the only noteworthy example?  It certainly appears that this is not that common in high fidelity.

[SonicReducer]

Ha! Excellent point! Now I can truly complete the Vicious AudioCircle of Rebadging Doubt:

1) Rebadging isn't at all common in high-end audio; 2) Even if it is common, it isn't noteworthy simply because everyone does it to some degree. 3) Even if it is noteworthy, finding such information is impossible; 4): Even if finding such information were possible, it would be useless because every product sounds different; 5) Even if the products sound the same, the customer who paid for the more expensive rebadge is probably getting higher quality service, a better warranty, or a shinier case for the extra money spent; 6) Even if the customer is not getting these extras, he bought the item for its sound quality and so should enjoy it anyway; 7) If he doesn't enjoy the item because he discovers that he paid $3,000 more than he could have paid, then it's his own damn fault for not being a diligent consumer. Even if he is a diligent consumer, his time will be wasted because (back to point one!) rebadging isn't at all common in high-end audio.

But seriously, think about all of the truly tiny companies out there (without either design or manufacturing capabilities) who have no choice but to base their designs on existing products. Essentially, many of these companies are simply modders by a different name. I personally think that the only true question regards whether or not you can find out this information before you purchase, and, if you do, say, find out that an amp is based on an existing design, whether or not the modifications are worth the extra money in terms of sound quality. That's honestly all I would like to know, but I'm beginning to think that other consumers in high-end audio really just don't want to know about rebadging, even in this value-oriented retail environment.

[JackD201]

Can you be specific please? This is making my head hurt. What exactly do you mean by rebadging anyway. I take it the way everybody else I know who are into this hobby take it -  literally. Same product different badge. Period.

It can't be something that is simply based on something else. Take a CD player for crying out loud. Sony and Philips developed the format so every single CD player is based on the CD-1 in one way or another be it a portable, a car player, a drive in a computer or whatever. They all have transports, lasers, control boards, a decoder chip and an analog output stage. CD is a standard. Same goes for record players, DVD players, cassette players name it. Amps? They all work on the principle of turning a small signal into a stronger one. Modern amps are based on designs developed for radio transmission. Everybody has to agree on standards or there would be no recorded music and no delivery systems for them. It is the very differences in design and implementation resulting in an altered sound however small that makes this hobby interesting not the 90 or whatever percent you want to tack on that's the same. What then would be the benefit of knowing what's inside when what it DOES is ultimately what counts?

I believe that the greater majority of hi-end consumers WANT to know about rebadging. Nobody wants to get taken. Folks simply don't find as much issue with products sharing parts because it is irrelevant. Now find a product that does what a famous, expensive and well regarded product can do for less money and I guarantee, snob appeal or no, totally different parts or not, that the greater majority will be VERY interested.

Everybody loves a giant killer, well except the giants anyway 

[cloudbaseracer]

Now find a product that does what a famous, expensive and well regarded product can do for less money and I guarantee, snob appeal or no, totally different parts or not, that the greater majority will be VERY interested.

Everybody loves a giant killer, well except the giants anyway 

This is my point exactly in talking about the Solution/Odyssey situation.  Ultimately that is the bottom line --- performance.  It is the sound and not the parts that are important.

Of course, everyone's personal bias comes in to play with something such as audio!