HDMI = digital audio out?

brj · « **on:** 22 Jan 2004, 01:39 am »

Hello!

The short version of my question: Does the advent of HDMI mean that we can finally have a full digital path from source through digital amp for multi-channel audio? (As we have had for Redbook CD's for many years now.)

I've been reading the extensive discussions of the Panasonic SA-XR45 with interest. For reference, see:

Giant Killer cheap DVD player for redbook transport to XR45?
Modded Panasonic SA-XR 45 listening session
Panasonic SA XRS Digital amplifier/HT Receiver

The high interest in the unit results from its relatively low ($399) price and its relatively high sound quality - a result of maintaining a completely digital path from Redbook CD source all the way through the 5 digital amps.

The upcoming Panasonic SA-XR70 has all of this, plus the addition of an HDMI input and output. When discussing the forthcoming Panasonic DVD-S97, High Fidelity Review states that "the HDMI interface will allow transmission of DVD-Audio in the digital domain to a suitably equipped receiver/processor such as the new Panasonic SA-XR70."

A few trips to google later, and I find that HDMI seems to be popping up all over. I was under the impression that the recording and movie industries were still trying to keep multi-channel digital content from escaping the actual SACD/DVD-A players - forcing the use of analog connections to the pre-amp. Is the wait for multi-channel digital "audio out" finally over?

-Brian

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #1 on:** 22 Jan 2004, 01:55 am »

You'll get a totally digital path so long as you use Panasonic's new DVD/DVD-A player. There may be other brands with an HDMI link, but I'm not totally sure the protocols will be the same (ie compatible).

The fly in the ointment there is that Panny has stated for the record that they have no plans to support SACD. Ever. That may or may not be an issue.

brj · « **Reply #2 on:** 22 Jan 2004, 03:59 am »

Thanks for the reply, Rob!

Quote from: Rob Babcock

You'll get a totally digital path so long as you use Panasonic's new DVD/DVD-A player. There may be other brands with an HDMI link, but I'm not totally sure the protocols will be the same (ie compatible).

So HDMI is a wiring standard only, not a protocol standard? I could understand the need to use different protocols between SACD and DVD-A, yet run over the same wiring, but it sounded like HDMI was an industry standard...

Quote from: Rob Babcock

The fly in the ointment there is that Panny has stated for the record that they have no plans to support SACD. Ever. That may or may not be an issue.

I've heard arguments both ways about which is better, but neither one seems to have grabbed the audio world by storm. A universal player would be the answer, but that makes my understanding of HDMI that much more important...

Thanks!

-Brian

-Brian

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #3 on:** 22 Jan 2004, 04:04 am »

I'll concede that as far as HDMI compatibility goes, I'm not totally sure. And I don't know anyone who claims to be sure, either. Looks like the only way to know will be to try.

At least the Panny is cheap enough to give it a try.

I'm still in that zone where I don't really want to go on the record as saying whether DVD-A sounds better than SACD, or vice versa. Both are a big step up from LP & CD, IMOHO. At this point I've got exactly 25 of each new format, and some are very old recordings (eg. Foreigner 4 & Led Zep on DVD-A and Pink Floyd DSotM & The Police on SACD). I've got a couple on both formats, and I'm trying to get Beck's "Sea Change" on DVD-A to compare with the SACD.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #4 on:** 22 Jan 2004, 04:05 am »

I'll concede that as far as HDMI compatibility goes, I'm not totally sure. And I don't know anyone who claims to be sure, either. Looks like the only way to know will be to try. Yes, it's supposed to be a protocol, not just a wiring issue. But I'm not real confident that the compatibility deal is perfect.

At least the Panny is cheap enough to give it a try.

I'm still in that zone where I don't really want to go on the record as saying whether DVD-A sounds better than SACD, or vice versa. Both are a big step up from LP & CD, IMOHO. At this point I've got exactly 25 of each new format, and some are very old recordings (eg. Foreigner 4 & Led Zep on DVD-A and Pink Floyd DSotM & The Police on SACD). I've got a couple on both formats, and I'm trying to get Beck's "Sea Change" on DVD-A to compare with the SACD.

bubba966 · « **Reply #5 on:** 22 Jan 2004, 05:43 am »

HDMI will pass Video, PCM, SACD, DVD-A, DD, & DTS. But it doesn't have to pass all of them.

So you can run just a DVI signal through an HDMI port. But I think the connectors might be a slight bit different. You'd just need a DVI-HDMI cable if that's the case.

Hopefully I'll be back down at the local shop on Friday and will get a better look at the new Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi. That one does it all. They had it hooked up to an Elite HDMI equipped Plasma (Pro-1110HD I think) when I was in last week. But I didn't have the time to check it out much. And it looked like they weren't running on HDMI yet as I think they'd just gotten it in.

John Kotches · « **Reply #6 on:** 22 Jan 2004, 01:23 pm »

At this point, phase 1 silicon is all that's available for HDMI. Phase I silicon is limited to stereo audio only (or compressed codecs like DD and DTS).

Phase II silicon (we're supposed to see the first products in the 2nd half of 2004) will allow for up to 8 channels of high-resolution audio at up to 24bits/192kHz sampling.

HDMI / DVI are "interoperable" to a certain extent. DVI can't handle audio at all, and is limited to 1080i. HDMI can run up to 1080p, maybe higher.

Cheers,

brj · « **Reply #7 on:** 23 Jan 2004, 01:35 am »

John-

Based on your very helpful comments, I did some more looking around. The closest I could come to determining if the SA-XR70 supports HDMI phase II is the following article, which isn't clear:

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/amp/messages/36713.htm

It's August release just barely takes it into the second half of next year...

I did find out, however, that HDMI is supposed to support "content protection." This was listed as the reason for the broad industry support of HDMI, but no details were given regarding the actual method.

Bubba96 -

I'd be interested in hearing what you learn on Friday. HDMI is sounding a bit open ended at the moment!

Rob -

I'm not sure of HDMI's compatability either, but I figured that someone around here would be!

As for DVD-A vs. SACD, I'm not going to sweat it enough right now to go looking for really high-end players... blue-ray will be here in the not-to-distant future, so I'd have to upgrade then anyway. As it is, I only plan set up 2 speakers initially. I was just looking to keep the upstream components as flexible as possible from the start.

Thanks to all for the answers!

-Brian

John Kotches · « **Reply #8 on:** 23 Jan 2004, 06:02 pm »

brj,

HDMI uses the same mechanism as DVI does, HDCP (High bandwidth Digital Content Protection).

Neither the blu-ray or HD-DVD consortiums have announced anything about high-resolution audio on these formats.

Cheers,

brj · « **Reply #9 on:** 24 Jan 2004, 04:18 am »

Thanks, John!

Do you have a particular source for this info, or have you just been following it long enough to know the details?

-Brian

John Kotches · « **Reply #10 on:** 25 Jan 2004, 06:27 pm »

Brian,

I write for Widescreen Review, but am participating here is an enthusiast. I talk with a number of manufacturers and pursuing digital signal paths for audio and video are areas of particular interest to me.

So, I "have" to follow it for WSR, which is cool because it's also my area of greatest interest.

Cheers,