[wilsynet]

Vinnie,

When I ordered the Isabellina, forgoing for now the Isabella, I did not know you were offering an upgrade path.  It is a very good upgrade path indeed, incredibly generous, and one which I have not observed from any other vendor.  It's very smart.  With such an upgrade path, when I'm ready to spend more money and assuming I remain satisfied with your gear, I'll be more likely to spend my money with you.

This is really good for both of us.  And it's worth saying again: it's the kind of commitment to the customer that I've never seen before.

Thanks so much.

Wilson

[Afterimage]

I have to add to my previous post that I have a background with audio hobby for over twenty years. I have owned and used various so called hiend brands (also pretty expensive ones too) during these years. I have also owned pretty decent analog rigs as well and all I can say - I'm gobsmacked by the quality of the sound produced by the Mac+Isabellina+Isabella+30.2 combo.

NOS DACs are my cup of tea and implemented well (as seems to be the case with Vinnie's DAC)the result is nothing but shockingly good.

I say this after approx. 30 hours of use. And is getting better...

jouni

Hi Jouni,

Thank you... sounds like you have owned a lot of gear in the last 20+ years and it means a lot to me to read you are drunk on the RWA sound! 

All this is very good, great even, to hear, but is there anybody out there who has heard both Isabellina directly into 30.2 and Isabella/Isabellina into 30.2?

I'd really be interested to hear some of the finer points of the differences between these two setups -- if anybody has heard them both, that is.

Aside from Vinnie, that is -- but his thoughts would also be appreciated .

Hi Jim,

Of course I have heard them both.  The Signature 30.2 integrated + Isabellina dac is a match made in heaven, and wilysnet has done a very nice job mentioning  the key attributes of the sound with this pairing.  This is very hard to beat in its price range and if you are on a budget, you will NOT be disappointed with this pairing.

Adding the Isabella into the mix gives the listener an "eargasm"  - simply put. 
Isabella adds even more of the following:

1) Richness of tone
2) A greater sense of space and dimensionality, more layering of the soundstage
3) More "air" (I used to dislike this term, but with the Isabella in the mix I understand what people mean by this... the sound "breathes" more - much closer to the 'you are there' experience). 
4) Vocals are even more seductive
5) Dynamics in the music are more life-like
6) The top end is even more extended - this has a lot to do with numbers 2 and 3 above.

As Wilsynet mentioned above:

Based on my previous experience, a good valve line stage will add air, dimensionality, and some extra heft and drive.  These things together will give you more of a sense of thereness and realism that might otherwise by missing. 

Exactly!

Also please note:

To those who purchase the Isabellina dac - this can always be later installed in the Isabella preamp.  The Isabella with built-in dac is $5500.  If you were to buy them separately, the Isabella line-stage ($4000) + Isabellina stand-alone unit ($2500) is $6500.  You save $1000 when you buy them in the all-in-one Isabella w/ dac.

However, I will gladly take back an Isabellina, remove its dac board, install it in a Isabella, and sell the Isabella for $3000 (so you don't lose the $1000 because you bought them separately).

Red Wine Audio wants to have long-term relationships with all our customers, and this requires that we make the effort in offering am upgrade path (e.g. the Sig 30 and Sig 70 partial and full upgrades to the 30.2 and 70.2) that works for our customers, so always feel free to contact us about upgrading.  No need to sell your Isabellina on audiogon and take a hit on your purhcase because you want to upgrade to our Isabella with built-in Isabellina. Always feel free to contact me.


Hi Krmathis,

Glad your Isabellina arrived safely and you are enjoying it... please keep us posted!


Best regards,

Vinnie

Among the 6 on your list, I'm not sure if I agree with number 6.  In my system the treble is not as extended as i would like.  However, it could be something else in my system.  I voiced it to be warm since I have a brighter room and one of the sets up speakers (Monitor Audio GS60) I use are also a little on the bright side.   Maybe I have to much of a good thing now as the the treble seems a bit recessed and soft in the mix.   I have Purest Audio Design speaker cables, which are darker sounding.  They worked good with my other gear, but perhaps with the RedWine Lineup on my frontend it is to much.   Thoughts?

[Vinnie R.]

Hi Afterimage,

I have Purest Audio Design speaker cables, which are darker sounding. 

1) I recommend you do NOT use dark sounding cables.  Play with different interconnects and speaker
cables and see what happens.  No need to spend much $$$ when experimenting - even "budget" cabling
will change the sound and if you try cabling that is more neutral, you should get more top end extension/resolution.

2) You might want to try different tubes.  Again, no need to spend much to experiment
 - try Sovteks or Electro Harmonics 6922s (they are around $10 each).  I found them both to be brighter
sounding compared to the JJs that come stock with Isabella.  Have fun with tube rolling - you'll find a tube
that has best synergy in your system. 

However, I'd start with number 1 above.  Isabella has rich, warm sound, but is quite open and resolving - but not
bright or hyper-detailed or analytical sounding.  Something else in your system sounds suspect to me.

If you would like more assistance with this, please feel free to contact me.

Best regards,

Vinnie

[nonoise]

If I may, I agree with Vinnie that simply changing cables should do the trick. You don't need to spend
big bucks to really hear the difference. I've swapped out my copper cables for a low cost silver wire and
got great results with the highs taking on more air, tone and presence. The same went for the mids as
they fleshed out nicely and the bass went further down and got tighter and a bit more robust.
All of that from a cable swap.

nonoise

[Vinnie R.]

If I may, I agree with Vinnie that simply changing cables should do the trick. You don't need to spend
big bucks to really hear the difference. I've swapped out my copper cables for a low cost silver wire and
got great results with the highs taking on more air, tone and presence. The same went for the mids as
they fleshed out nicely and the bass went further down and got tighter and a bit more robust.
All of that from a cable swap.

nonoise

Hi Nonoise,

Thank you for sharing your experience with cables.  The more we played with so many different cables (conductors, insulators, arrangements, connectors, etc.) during the development of our RWA cables, the more we were able to find out how much they do influence the sound. 

Also - it is ESSENTIAL that the cable connectors and mating jacks are kept clean!  I have seen many dirty connectors and jacks, and you'd be surprised by how noticeable it is when you carefully clean them.  Even removing the cable from the jack and re-inserting it can make some difference with very dirty connections. 

Finally, make sure your connections are secure (snug fitting).  Sufficient contact pressure is very important

Once in a while, it pays to check your connections - just do it! 

Vinnie

[Randy]

Afterimgae - I sent you a PM.

[jrebman]

Wilson,

Just curious if you have any updates now that you presumably have some more hours on the Isabellina?  I say this because as good as I thought my 30.2 was at 100 hours, at 500-600 is when it really came to life for me.

Thanks,

Jim

[drubin]

Have any of you Isabella/Isabellina users compared the USB input (using a computer) to the coax or Toslink input (using a transport or CDP)?

[wilsynet]

Jim,

Leaps and bounds dramatic improvement from 0 - 50 hours, from 50 - 100 hours there were some spots where I thought the DAC was overly bright or the sound stage was exaggerated, but then it righted itself and it became analog sounding again.  Refinement and openness are the key improvements from 50 - 100 hours.  Then some small improvements after that, but based on the trend so far, I don't expect much to happen at the 200 hour mark or beyond.  Generally, what I've noticed over time is improved dynamics, refinement and holography.  Resolution rivals the very best oversampling DACs that I've heard.  The combination of Isabellina and 30.2 is now holographic in a way that I had previously thought was the exclusive domain of valves.

You really have to hear how good this combination is to believe it.

I've also found that with other DACs where I strained to hear the difference between different wire, the Isabellina and Signature 30.2 combination is very revealing with respect to different IC and SC choices.

I am presently using Gregg Straley's Reality Cables speaker cables, and go back and forth between Reality ICs and Signal Cable silver ICs.  I also have in my possession Transparent Cable ICs, Signal Cable ICs (silver and copper), and Synergistic Research SCs and Blue Jeans SCs.  I've always been quite skeptical, dismissing most audio cable claims as either snake oil or so minute in difference as to essentially be equivalent.  However, with the Isabellina and 30.2, I have to say that I was surprised how much of a difference there is with different wire.

I'm quite happy with the Reality SCs, but I'll probably give Vinnie's ICs a whirl, and see if they floor me.

Best wishes,

Wilson

[jrebman]

Wilson,

Thank you -- this is indeed excellent to hear.

The Reality cables did not work at all for me with the original Sig 70s and my Adagios, but I don't have those pieces anymore, so I won't be able to try them.  Right now I'm using the Grover Huffman Silver-Carbon ICs and SCs and they were all around a big step up from just about anything else I had tried, but I'm really curious about the Chimera Labs ICs and SCs, and may give one or both a try at some point -- ICs first.

I too was pretty skeptical of cabling making any difference as I came at this from the perspective of an EE, but I've heard differences too large to be ascribed to anything else, on too many occasions now -- ICs, SCs, and power cables.

My new speakers are in the U.S. now and getting their last tweaks and adjustments, so hopefully I'll be listening to them shortly, and if my assessment is anywhere near close to those of the folks who have already heard them, then an Isabellina won't be too far behind.

Thanks again for all your thoughts on this DAC -- you managed to hit every one of my concerns right on the head.

-- Jim

[wilsynet]

Hey there,

Have any of you Isabella/Isabellina users compared the USB input (using a computer) to the coax or Toslink input (using a transport or CDP)?

Mariusz compared Droplet CDP analog output to Droplet via SPDIF to the Isabellina here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=57174.msg517654#msg517654

I haven't gotten around to getting a RCA -> BNC adapter, or I'd do the comparison for SPDIF too.  I have used TOSLINK with the budget minded Oppo 970 CDP as transport, and find it a little etched, but this is no surprise to me as that's what I always find with respect to TOSLINK.

As the Isabellina is a NOS DAC without any advertised jitter elimination/reduction function, my expectation is that if you have a source whose digital output is somewhat jittery, you may be well served by getting yourself something like the Monarchy Audio DIP.

http://www.monarchyaudio.com/DIP.htm

The Classic version, for $249, does not perform any upsampling.  The DIP is reputed to turn even a budget CDP into an outstanding transport.  So if you're looking to see how the Isabellina might complement an existing configuration, the Monarchy DIP might fit into the picture nicely.

If you're wondering if USB is better than SPDIF or TOSLINK, all of my previous experience tells me that the Macbook via USB is a world class transport.

Wilson

[Mariusz]

When we run Droplet's digital out and fed the signal to Isabellina DAC build in to the Isabella , we basically just by passed the Droplet's internal DAC. Of course we also used the analog output to compare the quality of the build in dac to Isabellina.
Droplet on its own is a very competitive cdp, however with Isabella and Isabellina DAC it just could not keep up. 
As to usb and toslink or coax differences, it has more to do with the quality of the transport and the way the material was archived on your hard drive.
Assuming that PC in general is the champion when it comes to noise, I would suggest alternatives such as Wadia iTransporter, Sonos with mods or others. A dedicate music PC like Mac mini might also be very attractive alternative.

I will compare the usb (uncompressed files) to the same material thru CD transport and report tomorrow .

Cheers
Mariusz

[Vinnie R.]

I too was pretty skeptical of cabling making any difference as I came at this from the perspective of an EE, but I've heard differences too large to be ascribed to anything else, on too many occasions now -- ICs, SCs, and power cables.

Hi Jim,

Hahaha.... me too! 

As the Isabellina is a NOS DAC without any advertised jitter elimination/reduction function, my expectation is that if you have a source whose digital output is somewhat jittery, you may be well served by getting yourself something like the Monarchy Audio DIP.

Hi Wilson,

Due to the non-oversampling nature, the Isabellina dac is not very sensitive to jitter. 

Here is an analogy: Picture a car driving on a road at 55 mph, where the speed limit is 55 mph - it can stay on the road without problems at this speed (assuming no slippery conditions, etc.).  Small movements in the steering wheel (jitter) will cause the car to move around on road a little, but it should still be easy enough to stay on the road.

Now, put the same car on the same road and drive 110 mph (2x sampling rate) or 220 mph (4x sampling rate).  It is much harder for the car to stay on the road, and small movements in the steering wheel (jitter) will have much more influence on the car's movement on the road at this speed - and there is a good chance that is will not stay in the lines of the road (errors from jitter).

I know, it is not a perfect analogy, but in essence you can see that as you sample faster and faster, the timing of the arrival of data becomes more and more critical. 

So while the Isabella is not immune to jitter, you'll find that even less costly sources (e.g. Oppo DVD/CD player as a transport) sound quite good.

I never tried the Monarchy.  I have read that these types of devices can actually add jitter if not implemented correctly, but again, I never tried it and cannot comment if it would hurt or improve the sound.

For best results, use the USB input from a computer (using lossless encoding).  The computer is not reading the data of the CD on the fly - it was already ripped to the hard drive (and hopefully you selected "error correction" during this process), and it is buffered before being transferred out.  The USB interface does not suffer from the same jitter issues as SPDIF.  Here is a nice article about it from Steve of Empirical Audio:
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue22/nugent.htm

If you're wondering if USB is better than SPDIF or TOSLINK, all of my previous experience tells me that the Macbook via USB is a world class transport.

My experiences tells me the same - I run it off the internal battery and feed the USB output to the Isabellina dac.  I have not found a CD transport (using optical or coax) that beats this.. yet! 

Hi Mariusz,

Thanks for your feedback and please keep us posted!

best regards,

Vinnie

[Mariusz]

Hi Vinnie,
it is funny that you mentioned 55mph in reference to Isabellina since it looks like it might become the lawfull speed limit for all US Highways......including R66.
Seems like you have set the "new" standard for RWA "Autobahn".
I will take it for the" test drive" tonight ............

Thanks Vinnie

Best
Mariiusz

[Vinnie R.]

All,

I received some Isabellina feedback today from one of my customers in the Netherlands:

Hi Vinnie,

Recieved Isabellina last wednesday in perfect shape and burning-in like he.....!!!!!
After 25 years of digitism, I now fully understand what you mean by "an analog sound".
My God, this design is awesome, mes compliments monsieur !!!

It's beautifully" controlled", detailed in a very natural way, capable of roaring dynamics, never fatigueing or harsh,
wouldn't call it warm but  rather natural. As you can see I can go on for hours and even my partner and kids are "dancing
the day away"!

As a newcomer I use WAV format to start experimenting with and it sounds extremely well.  Big iTunes-lover, even the radio sounds very good and big fun , Zappa radio, wow.

Congratulations with your exquisit designs and I'm proud and very happy that I've joined the RWA family.  I can't express enough the pleasure I / we have in using your designs and feel privileged being able to participate in your very special way of looking and hearing at things.

Hope I might report again after 100 hours !!!

Take care,

Rob

Rob, if you are lurking here on audiocircle, thank you very much for allowing me to post your valuable feedback, and I really appreciate all your kind words! 

Sincerely,

Vinnie

[jrebman]

An update on my journey to the land of RWA digital...

Long story short, I placed my order for the Isabellina the day after RMAF.  I initially intended to give the order directly to Vinnie but got some sort of flu-like bug and went home early Saturday.

Anyway, the Isabella has been here just waiting for  a few other odds and ends to fall into place, but yesterday the last of those pieces -- the KCI Falcon digital cable, arrived.  I'm using a brand new Oppo 980 as a transport (as I'm still trying to find the time to get my laptop all configured for playing tunes), and now the Isabellina is playing into the 30.2 and my new F120A Fonkens.  Wow, I'm floored -- everything is new and obviously has some of those quirks that new gear always exhibits, but I'm sitting here with huge smiles on my face.  Of course I'll be reporting more as I get more hours on the system, and then later this week, or early next, my Bent TAP-X should be arriving, so that will go in the mix then.

I've decided to keep the entire front end passive and clean and pure as possible, and eventually I'll bi-amp the system, but for now I'm just as pleased can be.

Thanks again to all who helped me get to this decision -- especially Wilson, ZLS, and of course, Vinnie.

-- Jim

[wilsynet]

Good news all around.  I'm glad that the Isabellina has not disappointed. =)  When you get around to configuring the laptop, you'll fall in love with the convenience of iTunes and the Isabellina!

[Vinnie R.]

All,

This is a great thread (thanks for all the feedback) and I wanted to add a link to another really good thread started by wilsynet:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=62974.0

"From Isabellina dac to the Isabella (with built-in Isabellina dac)"

As good as the stand-alone Isabellina dac is, this thread contains feedback on how the sound improves when the Isabellina dac is joined with the Isabella tube preamplifier stage. 

For those who own the stand-alone Isabellina dac, we will gladly offer you the same full-credit ($2500) towards the Isabella tube preamp with Isabellina dac - and if you are already a 30.2 or 70.2 owner, we offer you an additional 10% off!   

Happy New Year!

Vinnie