[mlschifter]

Thank you for the greetings Mr. Schifter, but I haven't got a pleasure to meet you so far. However, my name is exclusively Croatian, and I never heard it anywhere else, so I guess a person you know might be originally from my country, living in pretty far away Moscow.
Although it is not complex at all, most nutritionists agree that Mediterranean food is the food for human beings. So whenever you decide to go considerably more south-west from Moscow, you are very welcomed to taste it in it's original ...

So sorry... and yes... the Dubravko I know is in fact from Croatia, and he is the most passionate person I know about a certain Italian automobile company...

He also owns Moscow's best Italian restaurant (Dorian Gray) and we have enjoyed several bottles together... (I love Italian food...) I'll be back there soon enough and much more food and wine will be consumed...

Thank you for the invitation... Perhaps one day...

All the best...

mls

[bkwiram]

There have been two different (and somewhat related) major themes here: what Chinese manufacturing can do for VMPS and its cabinets, and then what it can do for the industry as a whole from a packaging and marketing perspective.

Taking one theme at a time: This thread started out with someone suggesting 'VMPS in a prettier cabinet.' I am fairly aesthetically sensitive and feel that the RM40 is already the best-looking VMPS speaker ever (at least getting back into the late 1980's). And that photo of Casler's cherry flambe 626 made me think an RM40 in the same would look very nice. But I too would definitely like a sexier cabinet if it doesn't cost too much more than the current standard.

However I think the opportunity for VMPS is not only to present a slightly sexier cabinet, but also to refine the core product line to reflect what has been learned with the RMX (whether or not that speaker is shipping). The three major improvements of that speaker, are, apparently: both front and sidefiring woofers, cutaway baffle to eliminate diffraction, and topmounted swiveling tweeter. At least the first two of these, it seems to me, could be incorporated into the VMPS line generally. Sidemounting a woofer is presumably not a horrible technical challenge, and as for the baffle, I had the same idea as did a few others here: why not create a 'faceted' baffle (cut from an MDF billet, though not one 6' thick) that would be easier to fabricate than the 'swoopy' RMX baffle. Presumably a baffle with shallow facets would not be quite as good as four inches of swoop but then nothing's perfect, right?

I have a more radical idea, though. With the RM40 in its current configuration it doesn't seem like any smaller box is likely (big woofer at the top makes a wide box necessary), China or no China. However if a driver-configuration redesign could result in a narrower cabinet overall (with woofers at the bottom and nothing but mids/tweet above that), that would contribute significantly to a sleeker look, and that approach could be used for the RM1 and RM2 as well.

Thinking out loud here, maybe y'all could design something like a hard-edged, faceted Cadillac 'Art & Science' treatment of a height-stretched Egglestonworks speaker - I mean a wider 3-driver woofer box at the bottom supporting a narrower tower of mid-high drivers. I think that could look quite good and (with one potential caveat concerning cabinet volume) sound good too. It would also get rid of any need for an expensively faceted baffle, because the mid-high tower would be narrow to begin with (though beveled at the baffle edges, please!).

Anyway - my basic point remains - seize the opportunity to incorporate the RMX lessons into the entire line (to the extent possible and prudent).

Turning to the logistical side for the moment (and speaking as a former investment banker and private equity investor-type who should probably not be trusted), Brian's proposal to import speaker 'kits' rather than finished units makes the most sense to me. That way Big B could reduce his upfront costs (paying for kits rather than finished speakers), increase flexibility (most of the drivers are shared across the line, so you could have a parts bin and a cabinet 'bin' and mix and assemble to suit as orders come in), and retain the ability to customize to suit (Cap upgrade? Wire upgrade? no problem...). For some reason I just get the willies when I think about a sudden switch to importing completely finished products from China. Seems like all kinds of bad things could happen. But starting with cabinets and then moving on to drivers (and xovers?) slowly, while retaining the existing drive suppliers as long as necessary, seems much less risky.

The second issue is what this kind of thing can do for the high end beyond VMPS. Brian has proposed selling the speakers through av123 and possibly other mail-order channels. My first reaction: the VMPS website itself needs a serious upgrade. The Europe site is vastly better and even if that were merely copied for now (with updated upgrade and price information) that would be a big step in the right direction.

Of course I have a more ambitious (uh-oh) thought - and it started with Red Rose Music. Whatever you think of Mark Levinson, he seems to be doing all right with his boutiques, and the concept is appealing: get off (or better, never get on) the component-matching merry-go-round. However, Red Rose's stuff ain't exactly value-oriented.

So here's my crazy idea: why not assemble a line of star-designer VMPS-and-value-friendly systems. Assemble as much as possible of the system in China in your *own* factory. (Construction quality of everything would have to be high, so that web-based flamers couldn't say 'it'z made in Chinna and I kno it suckz.) My initial thoughts: MSB digital front ends (especially if you could make some of their stuff a little prettier), Nelson Pass-designed electronics, and VMPS speakers. (The average Joe might think VMPS's speakers are a bit pricey to start with, and that could be where the existing Onix line comes in - Brian could tweak up the conventional-driver stuff for Onix speakers between $500 and $2500, and then there would be the premium VMPS line of ribbon/planar speakers starting with the (presumably renamed) 626.)

Mr. DeWulf thinks Pass amps & the RM40 go together like peanut butter and jelly, *and* Pass has serious high-end cred, *and* he has showed interest in the value end of the market over the years, most recently with the stillborn Volksamp project. Obviously the stuff made in China couldn't be direct competition (visually at least) with his Pass Labs gear, nor could it (probably) use any names like 'Supersymmetric' in its spec sheet, but if he were interested he could design a Volksamp (different name please) line to be built in China and to be visually plainer than Pass but sonically 'close.' (If you could get Pass involved, you could have Desmond Harrington, his industrial design guy, do the visuals for all the gear. Pass stuff looks good!) As for MSB, they already have plenty of stuff at the value end of the spectrum. They just need to be a little prettier. I think it might help that all the principals in my high-end dream team (nightmare?) live in Cali. That might make cooperation and system-synergy tweaking easier. Another possibility might be Marsh electronics...

I think the total number of Onix+VMPS speakers offered should not be more than 8: monitor, one or two 'mid-price' floorstanders, and 'premium' floorstander in each line, to minimize dealer/manufacturer costs and consumer confusion. (W/vmps speakers the FST and the Auricaps should be standard - maximize 'base' performance and minimize 'upgrade fever' for the consumer - the three upgrade options IMO should be super expensive caps (only one option), internal wire (again one option), and fancier finishes.) The electronics would include an integrated amp, a 3-channel amp that goes with the integrated amp to form an integrated HT system and stands alone to power traditional 2-channel plus subwoofer, and then two or three stereo amps with increasing power levels (100/200/300 watts). MSB might have to design an inexpensive transport to go with their DACs. Lots of details to consider. But the point is, use the Red Rose concept of selling complete matched systems, but do so at the high-performance value end. This could be started as a mailorder venture through av123, audio advisor, music direct, whatever.

If it took off, then I'd love to see retail outlets open in major markets - *not* stocking dealers, but showrooms (low inventory to carry - accessories and some cheaper gear), where people could listen to the gear in one or at most two rooms (less space to rent) and place orders. Expert setup would have to be part of the package when a complete system was sold. And there would have to be a nice brochure with reprints of reviews, etc. establishing the high-end credibility of all parties. (In general, think Saturn vs regular car dealership.) I know even this idea would be expensive, but it would be cheaper to set up than a regular dealership.

Those are my hasty reactions to this thread. Better quit while I'm behind, as we like to say in my family.

best,

Brandt K.

[John Casler]

Hi Brandt,

While our BIZ plan is not "word for word" what you wrote, a signifcant nudge in that direction is part of the proposal on the table.

Brian, Mark and Myself, and I know all the other dealers who support VMPS do so because it represents "signifcant value" and "easy entry" into the sonic world some call High END.

I call it HELP!!!!

High End Low Price

And I think Audio needs HELP right now.

[bkwiram]

...I have read some more about the Onix speakers and apologize for suggesting that Brian 'tweak them up.'

I do think that having two options in speakers (one conventional drivers and one much tweakier) is probably a good idea. The average customer isn't going to want to start with something as finicky as a VMPS ribbon with a narrow sweet spot and driver level pots and passive radiator manipulation.

But then that's part of the point, right? To get the average guy into the game, and then show him what else he could have.

I also think that the Red Rose concept deserves serious attention. I can think of NO market less efficient than High End OTHER than the dating market. There are way too many companies selling way too many options and you have to put four or five components together and they all have to match each other sonically and most of it you can't hear because there's no dealer in the area so you read the reviews and everyone disagrees and then there are flame wars between partisans on the net and...

For the average guy (even for me, and I'm more interested than most, been following the industry for 15 years) it's simply daunting - and probably overwhelming. Red Rose is a good start, just too expensive and in too few markets. Cambridge Soundworks is good, just too low end. There may or may not be $$$ to be made with a high-end sound at a moderate price, but I'd love to see the experiment done.

With OPM (other people's money).

best of luck to you all, whatever path you take -

Brandt

[bkwiram]

John, I agree with you that the HE needs HELP.

While I'm at it, I have another idea concerning system sales and HELP for the industry.

I think it would be a good idea to provide a book with each system sold (a book that could be bought separately for $20 or whatever) that provided really thorough setup advice.

It would have to be provided in steps. The first chapter would give very basic setup advice at the level of, 'if you want to put your speakers on the bookshelf, and they sound good there, great. This is how to do it best.' This is what most people are going to want to see.

The second chapter would consider how to pick a room, room geometry and how to locate speakers of different types (Onix vs VMPS) etc. This is what most of the rest of the people are going to want to see.

The third, main section would be a comprehensive tweakoid guide to audio, starting with outlet polarity and going all the way through equipment stands, room treatments (absorptive? diffusive?), etc etc. Not taking a brand-based approach, but rather providing setup principles applicable to any audio system. BFS's setup/tweak type stuff plus much more. The book would serve as a kind of 'welcome to the hobby' card. If you want a little, here's a little advice. If you want more, here's a little more. And then 3/4 of the book is: if you want it all, here's how. It would serve to educate buyers without insulting them or intimidating them, and it would give them the idea that there's more to good audio than a Sony ES product. I think it would be a service to the industry and to the customer (I hate the word and idea 'consumer'), and most of the material already exists in some form out there.

I don't have the expertise to write such a thing, but I would be able to edit it into a thorough-yet-attractive product. That's my offer to pitch in - you guys put it together (maybe in association with Bound For Sound) and I'll make sure the writing is consistent and clear.

What have I been smoking??

Brandt

[Sa-dono]

What have I been smoking??

Must be some good stuff if you don't remember

And why all the mention of Red Rose? You know they're just tweaked products from other companies..that have then become overpriced...right?  

[bkwiram]

I'm thinking about them because the concept (whatever the actual details of execution may be) seems promising. As I said above, the HE is a mess from a customer's point of view and efforts to make it less messy are worth looking at. Red Rose is very clearly such an effort, and it seems to be working. If that's not true, I'd be glad to hear about it. Although even if RR isn't going gangbusters but merely surviving, I'd say that's pretty good given the recession and the prices on his gear.

cheers,

Brandt

[Brian Cheney]

Can't disagree with anything you said.  Mark has to visit Russia and refill his vodka prescription, after that, who knows?

In the meantime send money, as always.

[bkwiram]

hey Brian,

That's a lot not to disagree with! I'll have to try harder.

I'd love to send money, but I want to *hear* the RM40s before I do, and right now that means a plane ticket to California...seems we're on the same page concerning these frustrations.

I have two revisions to my proposal and they are: maybe you'd need a couple more speakers in the line - in particular a cheap monitor/bookshelf plus an expensive one on the Onix side of things. I'm no audio retailer (though I am a real estate retailer, looked at from the right angle), and I suspect you'd have to have a decent 'starter system' somewhere between $1500 and $2000. To most people this will probably still seem like a lot, but whatcanyado? $500 for speakers, $500 for amplification, and $500 for front end is probably as low as you can go and still get some quality. Point remains, keep everyone's life simpler with a simple, comprehensible speaker line. (Cheap monitor for $500, cheap floorstander for $800, premium monitor for $1200, upgrade floorstander for $1500, and top floorstander at $2000+. Then the VMPS line kicks in with the 626.) It's daunting to walk into a stereo store (real or online) and see twenty different speaker models crammed into a small space.

And then in the perfect world the stereo amps in the line (maybe just two, at 150W and 300W, plus the 3-channel and plus two integrateds, one very basic at $500 and one 'premium' at $1000 or so but both capable of taking multichannel preamp upgrade cards) would be convertible to monoblock, saving you the hassle of having different stereo and mono amps for those on the upgrade path.

please ignore my poor sentence structures,

Brandt

[Brian Cheney]

Sounds good to me.  We just have to get Mark to go for the whole enchilada.  Maybe you and him both need to send money....

[John Casler]

I'd love to send money, but I want to *hear* the RM40s before I do, and right now that means a plane ticket to California...

Or.....

You could hike to Oregon, we just sent a beautiful pair to a great guy up there who "might" (if we ask him nicely) let you take a listen.

[Sedona Sky Sound]

Hello bkwiram,
 The "book" you refer to has already been substantually started by myself (and John C seems to have started his own version) as a preparation and setup tool for my customers that I cannot physically visit. I have sent you a link to the portion of it that is available on the private section of my website (the CD version contains more info). I would appreciate your feedback. Since I view this as a market differentiator (and it took significant time to create and $$$ to maintain bandwidth), it is not intended for general distribution at this time.        

Julian
www.sedonaskysound.com

[soundguy3]

Would be happy to host anyone who would like to listen to the RM40's


Sguy3

[bkwiram]

It's easy for me to sit on the sidelines and say that there should be showrooms.

My main desires, as a potential VMPS customer and in the context of this thread, are for 1) sleeker cabinets if possible, and with as much RMX trickle-down tech as possible, and 2) the opportunity to listen to the stuff without having to travel a lot. (Portland is tempting! I'll be in touch!) An up-to-date website would also be nice. I'd just hate to see the opportunity to get neat cabinets from China used only to get nice veneers, and not to at least think about the look and configuration of the line to make it as competitive and attractive as possible. At the present VMPS definitely has an 'enthusiast' look rather than a 'designer' look - which restricts the customer base somewhat. As various people have said on this thread, 'Would love to have a second pair of VMPS, or a first pair, but the wife won't let me.' If a sleeker cabinet results in equal or better sound, then it seems like a good direction to go. Plus that would make the line more attractive as a higher-end supplement to Onix on a site like av123.

The system-sales idea and the showroom idea (and the handbook idea) are 'perfect world' fantasies. They might well be viable business models too, but I have no experience in audio retailing and can only comment as someone who has visited audio stores and generally found the process frustrating. If av123 is doing lots of business, that's something worth paying attention to. *If* Mark is making good money with that direct sales model, and *if* the other Mark (Levinson) is also doing all right with his system sales model, then I think it might be worth looking at selling true high performance matched systems through the direct channel at really good prices. And if one could get Nelson Pass or someone else of similar stature involved on the electronics end, how great would that be?

I don't know what the market is for things like av123 - is it appealing to hardened audio guys, or is it doing most of its business with newbies who want a nice sounding system? My instinctive reaction (again, with no retail experience) is that the Audiogon guys probably don't buy this stuff, so you're aiming for the newbies and the people who have gotten their feet wet and found they don't like it (they want music at a plausible price, not the hassle).

Maybe an intermediate position between direct and showroom - here's another idea, cheaper - would be to have a website storefront plus a setup person available in major markets who could come install any system sold for over $3500 or something. That guy should have BAD panels and Roomlenses (or whatever) in his van, which he would use to demonstrate their value during setup. He should then be able to sell the acoustic-management goods in custom colors. Turn him into someone who makes the system sound great in-home. Remove the showroom aspect of the dealer and pump up the installation-and-expert-help aspect. Maybe that's the pitch: We come and make music in your home - complete systems and setup - high end sound at a real world price - money back guarantee. People have a month to try it, they lose $250 (or some fee to cover the setup guy's time) if they don't like it. But they don't have to ship it back themselves (maybe that's bad - maybe they should have to ship it, to discourage them from doing so! but then maybe it's good in that it lowers the risk upfront if they worry about not liking it), because the setup guy comes back to pick it up. Seems like a pretty low-risk proposition from the customer point of view. Maybe the setup guy doesn't initially install new equipment (unless the customer is sure) - maybe he has some basic demo stock (but no showroom) which he uses to sell the sound, and then the customer pays for setup only if he/she doesn't go ahead and buy a system. Demo stock like three types of Onix speakers, two types of VMPS (626 & RM2?) and some competent amplification. Just enough so that someone gets the flavor and can decide. If they have a big enough room and really like the RM2, they can go ahead and order the RM40 instead. Etc.

One might need to advertise in non-traditional (for audio) venues. Music websites? Symphony programs? Harper's? New Yorker? The Atlantic? You know, those little ads in the back of the magazine...

I do think the high end needs HELP, and creative approaches have been few and far between. So I'm thinking - and fantasizing - out loud here. I'd love to see some real-world way for people like Brian to sell more speakers to people who'd like good music and who otherwise would never hear of the stuff. And for people who aren't Agon and Acircle types to have better options in equipment procurement, because that's most of the people out there.  

cheers,

Brandt

[AVB]

bkwiram, I would think Portlannd is a given.  I used to drive from Whidbey to Portland just to catch a concert.  You'll be doing the same thing only with the RM 40's  

[lifewithmusic]

(Bump.)

Brian:  is there anything brewing for some cabinet by Schifter?

Just curious.  Thanks.

[Brian Cheney]

I haven't heard from Mark in a while.  His grandson was viciously bitten in the face and nose by a dog and he has been concentrating on getting the best possible care and treatment for the boy.  Business matters are on his back burner for now.

[Rob Babcock]

Man, I'm sorry to hear that.  Hope things work out okay for him.

[Tyson]

Yes, best wishes to Mark and his family.  Hope his grandson is OK soon.

[Hoots]

Linking manufacturer direct product vendors with solution/services providers (that aren't funding their business from product resale) seems like a good idea.   Many are often motivated to buy speakers because they either: a) built a new home with "media room" or b) had a "media room" built (room conversion).  The budget for these "rooms" is like adding a pool and the value proposition is similar.  How much utilization and value does a family get from a $40K pool vs a HT?

One way to increase awareness (and provide a total solution) is to form an alliance with new home builders and remodelers as well as with HT designers/installers (many don't seem to have store fronts nor focus on product sales).  It seems the HT designers are already aligned with the builders so linking product vendor with these service/solution providers seems like a strong value chain.  

 In many cases the customer is selecting a solution provider more than wanting to make product decisions on their own (a different buyer than most on the forums) so this channel should open a new market for dot-com brands.  Each solution provider should have a network of reference sites for demos. Perhaps Julian's business is an example?

I like the AV123.com experience and think VMPS would benefit by being on that site, but I would want to better understand how the products position vs future ribbon models from ONIX.  Is AV123.com going to stay mostly "Onix/MLS direct" or evolve into a multi-vendor "av123" of complementary products?

Integrating the solution provider network into a site like AV123 seems like a value to the consumer (assuming this doesn't turn into a dealer network with bigger reseller markup).  I think the installer/designer contribution to the forum and the availability of their fee-based services on-site to product buyers would be of value (especially knowing they are VMPS trained and supported).  Julian's contribution to this forum in representing VMPS seems like an example.