[DrOctagon]

I heard some B&W's today (685s) through a Rotel/NAD (some giant Rotel 7.1 surround reciever with an NAD T514 as source) setup that sounded decent (a bit too forward and lean for my liking though).  Still didn't sound as pleasing to my ears as my headphone setup, but I'm still set on putting together this speaker rig.

Very interesting info Duke!  I feel that at this point my finances will probably limit me to just the one sub purchase, however (not to mention the little bit of room I have to work with isn't very substantial...accommodating another sub might be tough).  I may have overemphasized the amount of bass I'm seeking.  I enjoy deep, articulate and tight bass...not the earth shattering stuff that will rattle walls, but I also don't have golden ears, and can't discern the differences in what I'm hearing as most of you can I'm sure.  I'm just looking into getting a sub that will compliment the Studio 20s, in reaching deeper and fuller than they're capable of on their own while listening to my music.  Perhaps the Ultracube 10 (I wish I could say I had more options on speaker brands...) is indeed in order?

Guess I just have to make the best of a bad situation JLM.  If I had more options available locally, I'd surely be considering them.  And you're right, I really don't want to be over-investing in a system that won't see its full potential.  On another forum in which I've made a thread similar to this, a poster has been quite emphatic about my pairing the Studio 20s up with a Bryston B60, but if I'm going to be handicapping the Bryston (not to mention the Paradigms) in such a lousy listening environment, I guess there isn't any reason to consider such an expensive piece of gear (probably couldn't afford it anyway...).  I'll be sure to give the Cambridge 640A a listen.  That or keep an eye out for a used Rega Mira (or heck, maybe given the circumstances I really am better off buying locally and 'settling' for a Rotel ((RA-1062)) or NAD ((C352 or C325BEE)).

I abhor anything remotely bright/sibilant (that and I prefer to just get lost in the music rather than analyzing its every detail), and I might set my sights lower in terms of a computer source, so I'm considering getting a tubed DAC.  The MHDT Labs Paradisea or perhaps a Scott Nixon tubed DAC have caught my eye.  Hmm...

[warnerwh]

With a 13x13 room it would behoove you to consider something like a Behringer DEQ 2496. This will help immensely.

The problem is with a square like that the bad peaks are twice as bad. Let's say you have a peak of 12db which is a lot already, now it's 24db. 

Once the bass is screwed up the entire foundation of your music is screwed up. Please believe me that the acoustics play a HUGE role in what your system will sound like. As a matter of fact after over three decades in this hobby I've come to the conclusion that the acoustics of a room are the FIRST things to consider. The acoustics can easily ruin a 20,000 system and make a 3,000 dollar one sound better.  As a matter of fact auditioning speakers anywhere but your own room can easily give you the wrong impression as the sound difference can be major from one room to the next.

Please go to the acoustics forum and ask questions. Forgive me if I am sounding pushy but I wish someone would have pointed me in this direction back in the 70's.

[JLM]

Dr. 8,

Well now that we have you beaten down    ...

You mentioned wanting musical sound, not detailed, and nothing bright.  Seems to me you might want to consider single driver speakers.  They provide a very coherent sound (like your headphones) and provide the ideal point source for the best possible imaging.  No issues of trying to make a woofer and tweeter sound alike at the crossover frequency.  No phasing confusion caused by crossovers.  In a small room you'll be almost forced into a nearfield setup, so any beaming of the high frequencies could be easily controlled by aiming of the speakers.  Also a small room requires less output (single drivers typically have lower ultimate outputs).  Single driver speakers also provide a direct connection between amp and driver (active speaker design) that helps explain how they can sound better than you'd think.  Check out the new single driver speaker circle here at AC.

With your small/square room and taste for tuneful bass I'd look into TBIsound.com.  The company is really known for it's quite remarkable and very small subs that use some sort of patented (mysterious) form of transmission line (TL) cabinet design.  They've even been known to somehow work inside a drawer (very non placement sensitive)!  I'm a huge TL fan for its deep, musical, fast, proper room loading (no boom) bass.  But they also sell a very small single driver speaker to go with the subs.  With most of the load taken by the powered subwoofer, this single driver speaker is only rated to handle 20 wpc maximum which is perfect for a small NAD amp/receiver (which I've owned years ago and liked a great deal).  They also offer a 2-way speaker that is compariable (specification wise) to the Paradigm Studio 20, but uses a much higher and 1st order crossover (both good things), and can handle more power than the single driver speaker (if high spls are important to you).

IMO Rotel amps are overbuilt for home use (but the 10 year warrantee on my Rotel is nice) and sound very average.  NAD sound better but aren't overbuilt.  I'd guess Cambridge to be between the two.  Check out goodsound.com for review of the small NAD integrated amp.

The cheapest/easiest way to upgrade the sound from your SB is to send it to Wayne at Bolder Cables for modification.  The hard part is deciding how far to go.  But Wayne can mod the SB to give the best possible sound available anywhere (SB or any other digital source) today.  I'd go for the $625 Enthusiast full mod and down the road add a $259 Channel Island Audio VDC-SB power supply (Wayne simply doesn't offer a "mid-priced" power supply upgrade).  You can go crazy with all the Bolder Cable upgrade options (and money invested).  Search AC for lots of impressions.  The SB I had was modded (not by Bolder) and sounded very good.  You should try the stock SB first after a couple hundred hours to see if you want to mod (or add a DAC).  BTW Channel Islands Audio has a very solid DAC available for $600 with an option to upgrade the power supply for $150.  I own several CIA pieces and they're very nice.  See their circle below.

I'd start with TBI single driver speakers and powered sub ($1700) with a small NAD amp/receiver ($400).  The powered sub and SB would be a basis for upgrades down the road with mods/power supply upgrades to the SB and replacment of the relatively cheap speakers and amp/receiver if/when you feel the need/want.

[woodsyi]

Cool stuff. 

Duke, good information.  It kind of goes with John Casler's theory of push/pull quad sub implementation.  You know, I am going to try something in my room.  I have subwoofers right next to the mains in my two channel.  My thinking is that both will be time coherent.  I am going to take the subwoofers to the back behind the listening position and fire them out of phase.  I could take the mains down to 40 and bring the subwoofer up to 100.  It will be an interesting experiment.

JLM, TBI sounds interesting.  What is robbing it's efficiency?  Shouldn't single driver in a TL box have much higher sensitivity than 87 dB?

Warner,  you know I use DEQ2496 on my digital out on my SB.  It mitigates but does not over come room modes in my opinion.  Plus, this may be a "luxury" he can't afford in his budget.  I like it my system.

Dr. Octagon, I didn't mean to put you off by suggesting that your room is a lost cause.  I assumed it was more like a dorm room that you would be out of in a year.  But if you must be in there for a while, then let's find the best compromise that you can get.  I think a bunch of very good suggestions have already been made.  And here is another.  If you like organic sound, than you have to give SET tube amp and high efficiency speakers a try.  Since this is "old" technology, there are plenty vintage gear out there as well as DIY projects using time tested circuits and designs.  Something to consider besides a Rotel/NAD receiver.

[JLM]

woodsyi,

Transmission line or single driver doesn't automatically indicate high efficiency.  But its true that most extended range drivers are high efficiency (owing to their heritage of being paired to flea powered tube amps and lack of power robbing crossovers).  In fact cabinet design only has a primary effect on sound below 200 Hz, so overall speaker efficiency is minimally effected.  Note that typically efficiency goes down as driver size gets smaller, so I don't see the 3 inch diameter TBI driver as being out of line.

BTW my transmission line with 8 inch diameter single driver speakers are rated at about 89 dB/w/m. 

I picked up Warner's DEQ to use exactly as you indicated.  The room is properly proportioned/set-up with acoustical panels added.  So hopefully the EQ is just to tweak the sound.  (Primarily I'm using it to replace the baffle step/zobel circuit in my speakers, to provide the most direct connection possible between monoblocks and drivers.)

[darrenyeats]

The very recent update (0.9.27) of the InguzEQ plugin for the SB works well even for precise bass adjustments - much better than the previous version. And it's free.

I agree that a separate sub (or subs) can give you more flexibility when positioning, especially in such a size of room.

Someone mentioned an external crossover earlier in the thread. You might consider the technical advantages of an all-active 2.1 system e.g. Blue Sky System One. In the UK you can order it on a free-return basis. Everyone should take note it's vital to audition equipment before purchase, and at the very least (for people who are remote like yourself) order on a free-return basis when you've exhausted all opportunities for auditions. For this reason I applaud your approach so far which is not to commit to anything unless you've heard it.
Darren

[JLM]

IMO (and that of others) EQ is not a cure all.  Its location specific (only where the mike was set up) and only a few dBs should only be applied (without stressing amps and drivers).  There's still no substitute for a good room (and speaker) first, appropriate absorption/diffusion devices, and then EQ.  But if InguzEQ is free, why not try it?

One of the real advantages of single driver speakers is that they are "all active" by default.  The advantages of active design cannot be denied and buying speakers/amps already properly matched (assuming you trust/believe in the designer in the first place) only builds on the active attributes.

[mcullinan]

Use the force Dr. 8 use the force... I have a pair of Epos M5 and i really like them. Any epos dealers nearby? Hmm... Maybe u could knock a wall down?
mike

[darrenyeats]

IMO (and that of others) EQ is not a cure all.  Its location specific (only where the mike was set up) and only a few dBs should only be applied (without stressing amps and drivers).  There's still no substitute for a good room (and speaker) first, appropriate absorption/diffusion devices, and then EQ.

Agreed.
Darren