[BobM]

I have always wondered at the choice of a MC cartridge with a high output vs a low output. I've generally heard that the low output version has less mass and generally sounds quicker/better than its high output version, if all things are equal and the phono stage can support both.

However, my phono stage does not have enough gain to support a .25mv output and I would need a step up device.

So, does the extra burden and issues of a step up (i.e. extra hum/noise, extra cost, extra cable, etc.) remove the benefits of a LOMC? Should I get the HOMC version and be happy?

Thanks,
Bob

[TheChairGuy]

It probably depends on your listening habits and acuity, Bob.

I listen only during work...while I fidget about.  I never sit in some sweet spot dead still and I'm almost always near field.  So, a LOMC I might hear the noise (or hum) inherent in the extra lengths of IC, step-up, solder joints, rca's, etc sitting as close as I do....as sitting that close doesn't do much for the magic soundstage that Low output models have over their higher output brethren.

If I sat 8-10' away from my system, in a comfy chair smack dab in the middle of the stereo soundstage for best effect...I'd probably choose low output.   But, I choose hi output cartridges mostly due to my listening habits and what I tend to hear.

I also hear serious degradation of the dynamics adding lengths to the transmission line that cannot be overcome by other virtues inherent in the low output device. But, that's just l'il ole' me

For me, I've yet to hear a satisfying moving coil (high or low), so my comments above apply to high or low output moving magnets or irons, as well.

btw, if you're talking about a Denon DL-103r at 0.25mv, then note that Denon's tend to under-report their true outputs (for some reason ) by ~ 30%.  Most of the other makes seem to report close to actual based on reports I've seen over the years.

John

[BobM]

Also wondering ... I know you definitely want a shielded cable running from the arm to the phono stage. If I insert a step up device in the middle, do I need a shielded interconnect between it and the phono stage, or just between the arm and the step up?

Generally I have unshielded interconnects throughout my system, other than the phono cable.

Thanks,
Bob

[TheChairGuy]

Hell Bob....the voltage of a cartridge is still kinda' puny even after you add 20-26db from a stepup to it...I'd think you're best off with a shielded cable there, too.

Like you, I have unshielded from my CDP to my preamp....it sounds fine.  But, when I lived 300 yards from the main TV/Radio towers in Washington DC, I definitely benefited from shielded everything/everywhere.

John

[Russtafarian]

Depending on the gain of your preamp, you may be able to run a low output MC directly.  My SP14 has 46db of gain in the phone stage and another 20 db in the line stage.  Plenty of gain for my .23mv Dynavector.

Russ

[JCC]

Even though I chose a high output moving coil cartridge (ZYX @ .48 mv), and I had a phono preamp with enough gain to handle the requirements, I still needed to add a moving coil pre-preamp. This partially related to the issue of hearing tube rush when I increased the gain on the phono preamp.

When I added the moving coil pre-preamp, the tube rush disappeared, and the overall clarity and low level detail improved dramatically. So, if you use a moving coil cartridge, you might find that you will need the pre-preamp, even if you choose a high output cartridge.

[twitch54]

Even though I chose a high output moving coil cartridge (ZYX @ .48 mv),

FWIW, that is not a HO cartridge, anything below .5 millivolts is considered to be LO. Typical HO are in the 2 plus millivolt range. Myself , I'm using a 'mid' output VPI / Dynavector (1 millivolt) , very satisfied and my ARC PH-5 has plenty of gain with no strain !

[viggen]

Yup about to say the same thing.  Zyx's high output cart is double the output of the low output version but is still pretty standard for a MC, so you still need a MC phono-pre or step-up with MM pre.

[woodsyi]

I gravitate toward low output.  I hear more tonal richness in the LOMC than HOMC but then I am a sucker for female vocals.  I will even prefer a little more background noise to get more out of voices.  This is the reason I went to tube rich Aesthetix Io which uses 12 tubes per channel.  There is a little more background noise but I get much richer music.  It's similar to Dolby NR on vs off on tapes.

[BobM]

Well I think I'm going to go the LOMC route and pick up a Hagerman Piccolo project as the step up. Lots of great things said about this active gain stage, even beating out the well regarded S&B TX103 transformers. And the whole kit will probably only run me about $200, some time and solder.

Thanks guys,
Bob

[toobluvr]

Depending on the gain of your preamp, you may be able to run a low output MC directly.  My SP14 has 46db of gain in the phone stage and another 20 db in the line stage.  Plenty of gain for my .23mv Dynavector.

Russ

I don't know that you can say this in isolation.

I think you also need to consider the overall gain and sensitivity in the system.  Besides gain in line and MM sections, there are other items that come into play:  namely, amp input sensitivity and speaker efficiency.

My system is as follows:

MC section:          20db
MM section:         42 db
line section:         16 db
amp input sens:    1.5 volts
spkr sens:            91 db

This a system with: (1) a healthy amount of overall gain, and (2) amps that are relatively easy to drive to full ouput, and (3) fairly sensitive speakers

Granted that at 58 db of MM gain I have 8 db less than you, but to have proper drive and headroom, and acceptably low noise levels I would never use a MM cartridge below 2.0 mV.  That is the minimum, and my system sounds even better with 3.5 mV.

For MC, I have 78 db of total gain, and a .45 mV cartridge output sounds about "right" to me. 

In both cases, my vol control is at 11 to 12 for desired listening levels.

A "typical" gain profile for using LO MC is 75db:  20db for step-up + 40db for MM + 15 db for line section

Your gain of 66 db (line + phono) is indeed very robust for MM, but still 9 db short of the above MC profile.   I gotta believe a .23 cartridge would need an amp very sensitive on the input (maybe 1v or less)  and really sensitive speaker (at least 95 db, probably more?) to work properly and offset your 9 db. gain shortage.

So you see, preamp gain is a consideration, but not the only one.

My 2 cents.

 

[ecramer]

I have been thinking about building a Hagerman Piccolo, I am running a a Paris Head amp from Aspin Amp with very good results I would like to compare the two.

ED

Well I think I'm going to go the LOMC route and pick up a Hagerman Piccolo project as the step up. Lots of great things said about this active gain stage, even beating out the well regarded S&B TX103 transformers. And the whole kit will probably only run me about $200, some time and solder.

Thanks guys,
Bob

[andyr]

I have been thinking about building a Hagerman Piccolo, I am running a Paris Head amp from Aspen Amp with very good results I would like to compare the two.

ED

Hi Ed,

I'd be very interested in hearing your comparison of the two, when you get around to building a Piccolo.  I have a Paris too and, to me, it's absolute lack of noise is a strong feature (whereas surely you will hear tube rush with a Piccolo?). 

Regards,

Andy

[BobM]

No tubes in a Piccolo - JFET's.

[andyr]

No tubes in a Piccolo - JFET's.

Aah, thanks Bob.  The "Paris" is JFET-based, too. 

Regards,

Andy