[hometheaterdoc]

Vern,

How often do you get up to the Raleigh area?  Where exactly in Charlotte are you?

How bound are you to the Paradigms?  I can almost guanantee you what you are hearing is partly your room and partly the Paradigm speakers themselves..... combined with the fact that the rest of your system isn't compensating for the room/speaker issues.

If you are sticking with the speakers, some room treatments will definitely help in your space.  I'd start there.  Depending on how extensive you go, that's still not going to fix the speaker issue.  You can work with it and match the components a bit better.  The recommendations of a tube amp or hybrid are definitely noteworthy.  I have a few customers in the Charlotte area that have Butler amps.  You might be able to hook up with them and give one a try... One definite way to alleviate some of what you're hearing is to employ some room correction and tame the peaks...  but you have to figure out exactly where they are first.

Your room is surprisingly similar to several of the "theater rooms" I've put in recently and the audio has been the issue given the aesthetic the owner was going for and unwilling to employ room treatments/room correction or use components that worked together well given the room limitations.  Lately I've been sneaking basic room correction into people's systems by only selling the Denon line of receivers with the Audyssey system or FIR-filter based "correction".  It's given great results thus far.... that and I don't sell anything as hot sounding as the Paradigm stuff.  I love the company.  But the speakers have gotten progressively brighter sounding with each iteration since coming on the scene 15 years ago or so....

[VernSchillinger]

First off, a big THANK YOU to everyone for your feedback and advice. I really am appreciative. Keep it coming.

At this point, I'm not yet fully ready to give up on the 100s yet. It sounds like some room treatments are in order.  The angled ceiling has always made this difficult.  I also admit that WAF is an issue (though not insurmountable  ).  I will also try the Bi-Amp recommendation (thank you for clarifying) and the jumper anomaly.  Damping of the tweeter also seems like a simple try.  I still think the midrange is more the issue.....its not the high end sizzle normally associated with a tweeter that is troubling, its the piercing vocals (especially female).  At some point, measurements of the room may be in order as well. I actually ordered a sound card for my laptop and have a rat shack sound meter and tripod. I had planned to use John's RoomEQ wizard software (its discussed on AVSforum in detail).  Frankly, I've never done this before and hence, will have to do some homework. 

Again, a heartfelt Thank You.

[VernSchillinger]

Vern,

How often do you get up to the Raleigh area?  Where exactly in Charlotte are you?

How bound are you to the Paradigms?  I can almost guanantee you what you are hearing is partly your room and partly the Paradigm speakers themselves..... combined with the fact that the rest of your system isn't compensating for the room/speaker issues.

If you are sticking with the speakers, some room treatments will definitely help in your space.  I'd start there.  Depending on how extensive you go, that's still not going to fix the speaker issue.  You can work with it and match the components a bit better.  The recommendations of a tube amp or hybrid are definitely noteworthy.  I have a few customers in the Charlotte area that have Butler amps.  You might be able to hook up with them and give one a try... One definite way to alleviate some of what you're hearing is to employ some room correction and tame the peaks...  but you have to figure out exactly where they are first.

Your room is surprisingly similar to several of the "theater rooms" I've put in recently and the audio has been the issue given the aesthetic the owner was going for and unwilling to employ room treatments/room correction or use components that worked together well given the room limitations.  Lately I've been sneaking basic room correction into people's systems by only selling the Denon line of receivers with the Audyssey system or FIR-filter based "correction".  It's given great results thus far.... that and I don't sell anything as hot sounding as the Paradigm stuff.  I love the company.  But the speakers have gotten progressively brighter sounding with each iteration since coming on the scene 15 years ago or so....

Shane, I am in south Charlotte (almost into South Carolina).  As most have said, some room treatments are in order.  I want to take a systematic approach to this and see how much incremental improvement I am able to achieve.  I'll admit, the tube/hybrid amps do sound intriguing. 

One of the reasons I have the speakers toe'd in was to alleviate some of the first reflection point reflection.  Can you guys give me a quick sense for where I should start in terms of room treatments and recommendations of products/manufacturers for each of the treatments.  Sorry for sounding so pathetic, but I haven't really delved much into the treatments area and there are so many options at some many different price points. Thanks.

[toobluvr]

To determine whether it is gear or room related, you gotta do one of the following:

(1) start switching gear in and out to identify the culprit, or
(2)  treat the room.

(1) is a process of elimination approach....touching all the bases....a methodical and logical approach.
If you try lots of different gear, and the problem remains regardless of what
you do with gear, you can be sure it is the room.

Unfortunately, this is time consuming and burdensome, but it wil tell you for sure
where the problem lies.  You will learn lots in the process.  And if trying different gear
thrills you the way it does most, you will have fun in the process.  An added benefit is
you just may improve your system and get it more to your liking.  If you shop wisely on
AG, no additional monies are needed, and no financial cost need be incurred. 
Just the cost of time and effort.

Under this approach, I would start with the speakers first.
I have never cared for any type of metal tweeter.
In the long run, they always give the fatigue that you complain of.

I suggest you consider a more forgiving, musical, and warm speaker:
Spendor, Silverline, Meadowlark, Proac, Soliloquy, Sonus Faber, Vienna Acoustics, etc.
I have owned the first 3, and personally enjoy their presentation and sonic
flavors.  I include the others based on reputation.
Lots of offerings to choose from on AG.

Alternatively, you could try treating the room first.
If you do it right....cover all the bases....and the problem remains,
then you know that the gear needs addressing.
But any money and time spent on tuning the room is never wasted. 
It will pay dividends with any system.  So even if it doesn't completely
solve your current problem, it is still a worthwhile exercise and expenditure.

I know I offer nothing specific here...just general guidelines to zero in on the problem.
Problem could lie anywhere.  Only way to locate it is as I suggest.
Everything else is guesswork.

Good luck....I've been there!

[woodsyi]

  I still think the midrange is more the issue.....its not the high end sizzle normally associated with a tweeter that is troubling, its the piercing vocals (especially female). 

You are talking 500 to 1000 Hz.  The speaker rising response starts at 1000 Hz.  It's got to be more room than the speakers.  I dig females vocals.  In fact, this is the raison d'etre for my audio playback system.  Until I put 18 absorbers, ceiling full of acoustic tiles, fibreglass batting in the interstitial space above the ceiling tiles and a big ass 4' x 6' x 10" diffusor panel, I was not getting the right voice.  Now I love it.  You have to put in some treatments.  You can check out my gallery to see to what extent I had to go to get the voices right. Good luck.  I recommend any of the stuff I use.  They are all effective to a degree.  The last piece, the SRL diffusor panel seems to snap everything into place.  I think they all add up to control the acoustics in my room.  Having said that, you might want to call Ethan up at Real Trap -- he is cooking up some stuff that might be just right for you!

[tvad4]

Even though you're not ready to give up on the 100s, why not audition a pair of these for 20 days with no obligation?  Tyler Linbrook Floorstanding Reference Monitor - 40Hz - 25khz  (Paradigm 100 - 44Hz - 22Khz). They cost $1800.

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?spkrmoni&1162658392

Also, the Soliloquy 5.3 can be found used for ~$700. 35Hz-20Khz.

With the Tylers, you can try them in your home basically for the cost of shipping. With the Soliloquy, you can likely resell them for what you paid.

Worth a shot...and you're not really "giving up" on the 100s...just temporarily experimenting with alternatives.

[toobluvr]

Also, the Soliloquy 5.3 can be found used for ~$700. 35Hz-20Khz.

With the Tylers, you can try them in your home basically for the cost of shipping. With the Soliloquy, you can likely resell them for what you paid.

Worth a shot...and you're not really "giving up" on the 100s...just temporarily experimenting with alternatives.

Basically, the same strategy I suggested above. 
It's what I would do first....try different speakers.
With careful attention to pricing so as not to incur loss.

I think the Paradigms would fetch about $1500.
Here's a pair of Soliloquy 6.3i costing less than that:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1162864648

Careful with these, though. 
I've heard reports of an overly-generous bottom-end when
placed in a restricitive room.  They need a decent sized room and space to breathe.

Also, I routinely see Silverline Sonatina mk2 in the $1500 range.
Tremendous value for this speaker (I have owned it).
I have not heard the Paradigm, but hard for me to imagine it beating the Sonatina.

[AB]

My experience with mid range brightness was solved ( mostly) with room treatments.
I use a pair of RF7 Klipsch, well known for their brightness, for HT and MCH .

What I discovered - after being told as much by several pple - was that in the untreated room I was forced to listen at a higher SPL to get "everything" out of the music. The bass and mid bass was over emphasized which forced me to up the volume to hear the rest of the FR.

Once I treated the room - 10 Real Traps - I was able to lower the volume and get the full FR at my listening position. I was also able to change speaker position to get the best imaging without focusing exclusively on the heavy bass issues.

I also upgraded the crossovers but this was just fine tuning, the treatments really did the trick.

No matter what you decide re speakers, you will want to treat that room.

[VernSchillinger]

My experience with mid range brightness was solved ( mostly) with room treatments.
I use a pair of RF7 Klipsch, well known for their brightness, for HT and MCH .

What I discovered - after being told as much by several pple - was that in the untreated room I was forced to listen at a higher SPL to get "everything" out of the music. The bass and mid bass was over emphasized which forced me to up the volume to hear the rest of the FR.

Once I treated the room - 10 Real Traps - I was able to lower the volume and get the full FR at my listening position. I was also able to change speaker position to get the best imaging without focusing exclusively on the heavy bass issues.

I also upgraded the crossovers but this was just fine tuning, the treatments really did the trick.

No matter what you decide re speakers, you will want to treat that room.

Thanks.  This is precisely the path that I am planning on heading down.

[warnerwh]

Be ready when you measure your room. Many people are somewhat disappointed in the measurements. A variation of plus or minus 15 db is common.

Whatever you do please realize no sound system will perform as it had been designed to in most any typical room. Treatments are a necessity. Fortunately if you're handy at all you can make them yourself. There's some nice commercial ones made by Realtraps and Gik. Both companies have good prices for what you get.

I'd do my room first as that will definitely change the presentation of your system. Then take it from there. Did I say room acoustics play a HUGE role in the sound of your system?

[goldlizsts]

Did you try substituting component by component to isolate the source of the problem?  Guess you'd have to borrow components to do the trick.

[hibuckhobby]

Vern...
You've recieved quite a bit of advice on this and I'm weighing in a bit late, but wanted to make a comment or two because I struggle with the same issues after going from ACI Jaguar 2000's to Sonus Faber Grand piano's.  The GP's are far more revealing...which with good recordings is wonderful, but it makes some older recordings...especially rock, very hard to listen to.  I've found a couple of things:

1.  I have caught myself listening louder than I often do due to the ability to hear into the soundstage better.  I catch myself turning it up.  Reducing the volume even a little will help quite a bit at times.  The fact that you like the bass with your current system doesn't help because it's tempting to really enjoy the 'slam' those Paradigms can deliver.

2.  While your 100v3's would never be called laid back, they are quite a bit smoother than earlier iterations.  You might find that moving them forward a bit more and covering the big screen when listening to 2 channel will help as well.

3.  If you start changing equipment...you may want to consider trying the SAS 10a preamp.  While very transparent and detailed...it just never gets in your face.  It also has a switch on the back that allows you to tailor the midrange slightly.  The only caveat is that this is a dual mono unit and has two volume pots.  If remote control is important to you...this won't work for you.

peace,
Bob

[VernSchillinger]

Vern...
You've recieved quite a bit of advice on this and I'm weighing in a bit late, but wanted to make a comment or two because I struggle with the same issues after going from ACI Jaguar 2000's to Sonus Faber Grand piano's.  The GP's are far more revealing...which with good recordings is wonderful, but it makes some older recordings...especially rock, very hard to listen to.  I've found a couple of things:

1.  I have caught myself listening louder than I often do due to the ability to hear into the soundstage better.  I catch myself turning it up.  Reducing the volume even a little will help quite a bit at times.  The fact that you like the bass with your current system doesn't help because it's tempting to really enjoy the 'slam' those Paradigms can deliver.

2.  While your 100v3's would never be called laid back, they are quite a bit smoother than earlier iterations.  You might find that moving them forward a bit more and covering the big screen when listening to 2 channel will help as well.

3.  If you start changing equipment...you may want to consider trying the SAS 10a preamp.  While very transparent and detailed...it just never gets in your face.  It also has a switch on the back that allows you to tailor the midrange slightly.  The only caveat is that this is a dual mono unit and has two volume pots.  If remote control is important to you...this won't work for you.

peace,
Bob

Bob, you've really hit the nail on the head. Since I posted my original situation a couple of days ago, I've done a few things that have helped (some of which match your suggestions), based on great feedback from folks like yourself.

1.  Moved my HT seats such that they are now 38% from the rear wall.  Received this advice based on reading through some of the very informative articles put out by Ethan (real traps) on his website.

2.  I've reduced the toe in a good bit and have raised the front of the speakers so that the tweeter and midrange are pointed slightly upwards. This has helped some.

3.  Last night I covered the RPTV with 3 blankets before an extended listening session......I felt this made a pretty big difference.

4.  Pulled out my rat shack meter to get a sense for how loud I've been listening.....was an eye opener.....been listening well north of 85db with peaks sometimes north of 95-100 db.  I've begun to turn it down some.  The reason I've been listening loud, is exactly what you've pointed out......I like the slam from the 100s.  Now this being said, the bass response at lower levels is probably low and muddy.....which again ties back to the lack of room treatments and why I've been cranking the volume control to compensate and thereby exaggerating the top end.  I'm most likely going to go with the Corner Mondo traps from Real Traps and also treat the first reflection points. I'm confident this will help as a starting point......especially after seeing what just covering up the TV did.

I'm starting to feel positive as I think I can get this situation under control by tweaking things here and there and addressing the room acoustics.......and not having to change out much of the existing equipment.

Will keep you guys posted. Thanks again.

[Duke]

In my opinion Scott F's post on September 13 (wherein he reproduces John Atkinson's in-room response measurement) is right on the money.  The harshness that you hear is a loudspeaker power response issue.

The power response is the summed omnidirectional response of a loudspeaker, and the Paradigm Studio 100 has a peak in the power response in the 4 kHz ballpark.

In my opinion, the cause of this peak is not the tweeter's waveguide.  In fact, if the waveguide were large enough, it would be useful in eliminating such a power response peak.  The problem is that the tweeter's radiation pattern is very wide in the region just above the crossover point, so much more energy in that 4 kHz ballpark is going out into the room.  The peak doesn't show up in the on-axis measurement, so if its showing up in the in-room measurement it must be excess off-axis energy.  And it just so happens that 4 kHz is exactly where the ear is most sensitive.  In my opinion if there is any region that a speaker shouldn't have a peak in, that is it.

Now in all fairness most speakers with a crossover between a cone midwoofer and dome tweeter have this same problem - namely a blooming in the radiation pattern on the tweeter's side of the crossover. 

Unfortunately, there really is no good solution to this.  If someone made a frequency-selective acoustic treatment that would only attenuate a certain band of frequencies and leave other wavelengths alone, that would be great.  But as it in now stands, any acoustic treatment that's highly absorptive in the 4 kHz region will be even more absorptive at higher frequencies, and will probably rob the presentation of a lot of its air and liveliness.

Still, in moderation that would probably be a net improvement.  Vern, if your heart is set on keeping the Paradigms, I suggest you buy some very large foam panels and lean them up against the side walls in the first reflection zones. 

If the day should ever come that you decide to go looking for speakers that do not have this issue, let me suggest the SP Tech Timepiece.   Its waveguide prevents radiation pattern blooming in the 4 kHz region.  Amphion is another possibility, though I'm less familiar with their speakers.   I sell neither of these, though I do admire the Sp Tech speakers a lot.  If I weren't putting my nickels into my own designs, I'd be an SP Tech dealer.

Just my $.02.

Duke

[tvad4]

Why not use a Behringer EQ (or other EQ) and attenuate the 4 kHz frequency?

[Duke]

I don't know how to do the quoty thing yet.

Tvad4 wrote:  "Why not use a Behringer EQ (or other EQ) and attenuate the 4 kHz frequency?"

Excellent idea!  That would no doubt help, and probably more than the foam on the wall that I suggested.  Higher WAF, too.

Equalization still doesn't really solve the fundamental problem, which is an acoustic one.  The acoustic problem is a flare in the radiation pattern, and no equalization in the world can fix that.

Once the speakers have been EQ'd for smooth in-room response, the result will be an on-axis (first arrival) dip in the 4 kHz region.  Not perfect, but a dip is much less audible (and much less objectionable) than a peak.  The famed BBC LS-3/5a used an on-axis dip in the tweeter's lower band to give a net smooth power (in-room) response. 

I have no experience with the Behringer unit, but the more I think about your suggestion the more I like it for Vern's application. 

Thanks!

Duke

[LightFire]

Try using an equalizer. So you can play with the frequencies until you find a match for your environment.

[bpape]

I'd agree.  Using an EQ is fixing a symptom, not the problem.  The problem is that the speakers have a skewed power response which is causing the issues.  Since you can't 'fix' the power response, the next best thing is to arrange them so that you're sitting in a smoother portion of their response.  Then kill the reflections that reinforce the hump that is bothering you by killing the side wall reflections.

Bryan

[amitm]

I agree with Scott F and Duke on this one. It is almost definitely the speaker, especially given the graphs from Stereophile. I went through this exact same problem for a very long time (8 years) with Thiel 1.2s, and eventually gave up. Positioning, changing amps/pre-amps, room treatments would all help and things would be fine for a few days, but then listener fatigue would catch up again. The fundamental issue never went away. YMMV.

If I had to do it all over again, I think I would either (a) get new speakers, or (b) get an equalizer. The second option is much cheaper and will preserve what you like about the speaker. I ended up taking option (a) and bought Phast 'Est from Rick Craig of Selah Audio, and am quite content with what I have.

--amit

[carusoracer]

Excellent thread

I will have to post my own to illicit such great responses to resolving system issues.
Nice job Audio Circle Members