[davehg]

I own the system below and have been curious about changing components. I need some reactions from Reference owners, since I do not seem to have a Seattle dealer. From what I have researched, the Reference de Capo seems like a likely candidate.

System: Merlin TSM-M's, driven by VAC Avatar SE, fed by a Technics DVD A10 into a MENSA DI/O. Cables are Acoustic Zen Satori Shotgun and Acoustic Zen Reference 1's.  A REL Strata III rounds out the bass. Speakers sit on Target RS4 stands.

I generally like the system, but have heard some awesome SET systems recently and think maybe I might go down that path. What I liked about the SET amp (an Air Tight 300b) was the immediacy and warmth, without sacrificing the detail. So I might keep everything in my system but change the VAC to an Air Tight SET integrated (8wpc). The Merlins are nice speakers, but I doubt they could run on 8 watts of SET power (an easy load, but they are only about 88 db). And I could just about trade the Merlins for a pair of References.

So given this system, how do the Merlins stack up against the Reference deCapo? I know they have better bass (not an issue with the REL) but what about imaging, depth, midrange and top end?

And if you were in my shoes, would you explore the 'SET-up" or stay with current system? I am in the Seattle area, so if anyone here is close by and willing to visit and bring your References, I would be grateful.

All thoughts appreciated.

[cyounkman]

Hey Dave.

Where is everybody?

OK... I'm moderating on the road, in a NY apartment using the smallest keyboard I've ever seen - so apologies in advance for the typing mistakes.

A lot of people are very happy using de capos with low-powered amps. I've heard various results, and ultimately my listening habits tend towards the loud and complex, so I lean toward higher-powered amplifiers.

I went on a bit of a rant a while ago in this forum about disliking a particular (relatively inexpensive) SET amp w De Capos; I will get my chance to hear a real SET from a local manufacturer in my system soon; and maybe I'll eat my words...

A great source for you might be Scott Markwell (who writes for TAS and, recently, Hi-Fi+), who has been doing a survey of SET amps over the past few years, using the Reference 3A Royal Master as his main speaker--basically a DC with a better cabinet and [apparently] slightly-higher-spec drivers. I think he has written about the Air Tight, and liked it quite a bit. If I remember the review correctly, the gist was that the amp captured the strengths of SET designs without failing in the stereotypical areas -- rolled off extremes, etc.

The point being--there seems to be a significant consensus that the De Capo/Royal Master design allows SETs to burn their brightest and best. Crossoverless is easy to drive, and the impedance curve is very friendly.

I'm pretty sure that someone here or somewhere used the Avatar with De Capos. I'll do some research to see if I can dig it up, and let you know.

In the meantime, there's a lot of discussion here in the forum on using SETs and subwoofers with De Capos...

[cyounkman]

WileyCoyote has been using his de capos w a VAC Avatar – he’s posted over in the systems thread – so he might be able to shed some light on your situation. I’m not sure if he’s heard any SETs w his DC’s.

As far as using the DC’s w triodes, a lot of people here have used switchable tetrode/triode amps, and overwhelmingly prefer the triode setting, claiming that detail, musicality and dimensionality are all better. This would indicate to me (not having a lot of experience w switchable amps) that the DC’s are a) revealing of triode magic and b) friendly to very-low-power solutions since the listening impressions I mentioned above are in opposition to a lot of people’s impression that SET settings on such amps are ‘only for chamber music’ or whatever.

I will be borrowing a pair of fairly expensive 8w 300B SET monoblocks soon, at which point I will have the opportunity to compare and contrast with my SS 150w integrated. If this seems ridiculous, well, it is, but that’s what I have.

[mcrespo71]

This would indicate to me (not having a lot of experience w switchable amps) that the DC’s are a) revealing of triode magic and b) friendly to very-low-power solutions since the listening impressions I mentioned above are in opposition to a lot of people’s impression that SET settings on such amps are ‘only for chamber music’ or whatever.

I have VTL MB 125 switchable that may be switched to 55 watts of triode.  On my last pair of speakers (the Sound Dynamics 300ti), I could hear extra clarity when switched to triode, but at a loss of bass firmness.  
However, these were not night and day differences, so I usually just listened in tetrode because the speakers would sound mushy on large orchestral works in triode mode, though great on jazz, vocals, folk, and chamber.

[mcrespo71]

This would indicate to me (not having a lot of experience w switchable amps) that the DC’s are a) revealing of triode magic and b) friendly to very-low-power solutions since the listening impressions I mentioned above are in opposition to a lot of people’s impression that SET settings on such amps are ‘only for chamber music’ or whatever.

I have VTL MB 125 switchable that may be switched to 55 watts of triode.  On my last pair of speakers (the Sound Dynamics 300ti), I could hear extra clarity when switched to triode, but at a loss of bass firmness.  
However, these were not night and day differences, so I usually just listened in tetrode because the speakers would sound mushy on large orchestral works in triode mode, though great on jazz, vocals, folk, and chamber.

When I switched to the De Capo I's, I could not believe how much better all around triode really is.  The De Capo's have so much resolution, you can immediately hear a change for the better.  Moreover, in numerous comparisons with large symphonic works, I have determined that the De Capo I's do not sound undernourished with 55 watts of triode power.  There may be a slight, and I mean SLIGHT, loss in soundstage width and image specificity in triode, but the upside is tremendous.  Far better tonal color, more resolved bass and flushed out midrange.  It really is a no brainer and I finally now understand why most VTL owners only listen to their amps in triode.

[cyounkman]

I've been spending some time with a single ended triode amp of late. Unfortunatley it doesn't have a switch to play with; but the sound with the de capos is absolutely lovely; the amp displays none of the typical tube weaknesses in my system, with the exception of a fluffier-than-life bottom end and a simple lack of power. The amp is only 4 watts, see... Not all of us have 55 watts in triode lying about...  

[mcrespo71]

Chris and a single ended triode!  I thought I'd never see the day!

4 watts is satisfying for you?  I'm surprised!  I guess the Reference 3a is more efficient than I thought!!!!  I imagine you'd need at least 20 watts to listen to symphonic works at the db's you listen at.  I don't go over 90 db's too much when I listen and I've actually brought a DB meter into the orchestra and the orchestra rarely breaks 80 db's from mid hall most of the time.  On symphonic peaks (e.g., Mahler), the db meter hit 98 db's once, but that is a rarity.  What are your peak db's, Chris?

[cyounkman]

No idea...I'm guessing in the 90's. I'm emailing a buddy who has a RatShack metre and I'll give you a number...

Oh... You'll also be pleased to hear the I've just hooked up my VPI again. Analog AND an SET! I feel so ...  fanatical...

I meant to post a lengthy description of my listening session with the manufacturer, which also included his two-chassis pre and 8w SET monoblocks. Now those had some real power! I only got them to clip once... I'll post later today if I get a chance. I had it half written a couple days ago only to find that my wife had closed the browser on me...

[mcrespo71]

      You are listening to vinyl and SET?  Man, you are turning into a true hobbyist now!  I have expect you to say you are going to build a Teres and are now deciding to design your own SET triode design based off of a schematic from the net

Chris- I was thinking about your listening preferences this morning and thought that perhaps Atmasphere would provide the type of amps you are looking for.  I heard the MA 60 MK II amp once and must say it was unbelievable.  I can honestly say they smoked some VTL's and ARC amps that were in the room at the time, but I thought 60 watts OTL was too little wattage for my 300ti's.  Now that you are running the Reference 3a's to good effect with 8 watts- this opens up a whole new can of worms  

I can't wait to read your impressions- you luddite you!!!!

[Red Dragon Audio]

I own the system below and have been curious about changing components. I need some reactions from Reference owners, since I do not seem to have a Seattle dealer. From what I have researched, the Reference de Capo seems like a likely candidate.

System: Merlin TSM-M's, driven by VAC Avatar SE, fed by a Technics DVD A10 into a MENSA DI/O. Cables are Acoustic Zen Satori Shotgun and Acoustic Zen Reference 1's.  A REL Strata III rounds out the bass. Speakers sit on Target RS4 stands.

I generally like the s ...

I have the ASL Ki22 Fox which is a SET integrated that uses the 6C33 tube as a cathode follower (whatever that means I dont' know...not an engineer really).  But it sounds fantastic and has plenty of power for Mahler and what not.

My SETup has a truly clean and natural sound.  Strings sound like strings, you can feel the breath from the singer's voices and so on.  The only drawback in my system is my source but that will soon be rectified.

I would say you can't lose if you are getting de capos no matter what amp you are using with them.

[cyounkman]

I would say you can't lose if you are getting de capos no matter what amp you are using with them.

I tend to agree here. The manufacturer who visited my place last week was visibly (and verbally) surprised at how good my system sounded with De Capos and the Scarlet-Letter-Already SS integrated. While it doesn't do certain things as well as SETs or PP tubes (like imaging and instrumental timber and the whole magical thing), the DCs really show it at its best in terms of dynamics, scale, control, bottom end.. all the solid state tricks.

By way of contrast, the visiting monitors sounded dead with my amp (it sounded like the amp was beating them with a stick) even though they sounded wonderful (obviously) with the SET amps they were designed for.

Sorry to ramble. Point, in short: Hook the DCs up to anything [that I've found so far], and they will tell you what the amp is doing without complaint (I've now verified this all the way down to 4 watts) as long as you don't pull out the big guns in terms of repertoire.

[mcrespo71]

De Capos and the Scarlet-Letter-Already SS integrated

OMG, Chris!!!!!  You made me laugh so hard with this quote!          

I'm going to call you Hester Prin from now on!!!   Just kidding.  That's really interesting that your amp sounded dead with those "made for SET" speakers.  [/code]

[davehg]

Bruce was nice enough to offer to let me listen to his 3A's. So I just need to find time from work...

I did move my hifi into another room last week, and what a difference. The room dimensions were the same (rectangle), but the Merlins were firing the short width instead of the length of the room. Bass improved leaps and bounds, almost too much. The system has a lot of that immediacy that I did not hear upstairs. Amazing what a room change can do.

[cyounkman]

I'm going to call you Hester Prin from now on!!!   Just kidding.  That's really interesting that your amp sounded dead with those "made for SET" speakers.  

Woah! I think we just had some kind of literary content on an audio forum! JohnR, did we set off some kind of alarm?

Anyway: Thank you, mike. We do try. I will send my writers home early tonight with a bonus.

[mcrespo71]

You need to paint a Red "A" on that Acurus integrated amp, Chris

Nathanial Hawthorne would be happy his writing imbues audio forums!