Anyone using their MM De Capo I with a Subwoofer?

mcrespo71 · « **on:** 1 Aug 2003, 01:48 am »

I just got back from seeing Mahler #1 played by the MN Orchestra. I came home and listened to the symphony on my De Capo I's and realize I can't ask such small speakers to accurately recreate a full symphony! I need more fundamentals, so I'm looking at Rel Storm III or ACI Titan II subs. My father has two Rel Stentor 2's paired with Magnepan 3.6 and it gets about as close to getting the gestalt of the full symphony as I have heard in the home. I've now decided that I listen to too many symphonic works to be able to survive on the MM De Capo I's to reproduce them all. I'd like some ideas. The midrange, midbass, and highs of the De Capo's are excellent, so I'd just like to fill in the bottom.

doug s. · « **Reply #1 on:** 1 Aug 2003, 03:42 pm »

i haven't tried the mm de capo's, but i have a sub set-up, & have tried several different speakers w/it. imo, if ya have a good subwoofer set-up, it will benefit almost any speaker, even full-range floorstanding speakers. my subs certainly made thiel 3.5's sound better, & these are -2db at 20hz.

imo, the key to a good sub set-up is to use stereo subs, preferably passive, w/a good flexible outboard active crossover & a separate amp. for audio, i also prefer forward-firing drivers. active subs almost invariably have electronics that discourage crossing over the monitors, thru complexity, or thru mucking up the sound. therefore, the monitors are usually run full-range. passive subs w/a quality active x-over do not have this issue. and, one of the benefits of a sub set-up is to relieve the monitors of the low-frequency duties. if you actively crossed over your decapos at, say, 60hz, the midbass and midrange would almost certainly improve, as the decapo's woofer wouldn't be as stressed...

my sub system consists of of a pair of vmps larger subs, a marchand xm-9LL active x-over, & a pair of electrocompaniet aw75dmb amps. when i originally got the set-up, i used a pair of adcom gfa555's, & the cost of everything new, except one of the adcoms, which i got used, was still >$1k less than *one* rel stentor. and, while i'm sure your dad's rig is nice, i wouldn't trade my sub set-up for his!

ymmv,

doug s.

btw, if ya insist on using only one sub, i suggest nearfield placement, directly centered between the speakers. as a footstool, would be perfect...

cyounkman · « **Reply #2 on:** 2 Aug 2003, 07:20 pm »

mc - I am right there with you. The laws of physics are still in effect, despite the crafty xoverless design. I often miss the deepest fundamentals of organ music, electronica, etc.; and Mahler (in particular) requires a lot of air movement down in the range where the De Capos are just starting to breath.

I have a Monitor Audio ASW 110 which I use only for films, and occasionally for electronica at party levels. Whenever I do listen to it, I'm surprised at how not-bad it is; but I still don't really think it's up to snuff. That said, though, I haven't taken any time to place it correctly, apply power filtering, or even use a decent run of cable.

It's my intention to do stereo subs at some point, with a decided preference for small and fast (even if ultimate extension suffers) over big and boomy. After waiting for Reference 3A to deliver the long-promised subwoofer, I've given up entirely. I've heard good things about the MJ Acoustics lineup.

The folks over at Hi-Fi + and TAS like using the R3A monitors with subs. Scott Markwell has used the Royal Virtuosos for some time, first with a passive sub of his own design using a Jadis 18" driver; more recently with the Alon Thunderbolt (which I think uses one of the drivers from the grand poobah Exotica Reference system) and the VBT Magellan VIII, a funny little box with a small driver and a bizarre loading schema that is supposed to be very room-friendly and very fast (there's a review at avguide.com). I don't remember what Gregory used with his DCi's. Maybe someone else will?

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #3 on:** 3 Aug 2003, 08:29 pm »

Thanks for the advice! My budget is around $1200, so I'm looking at used Rel's and the ACI Titan 2 or ACI Force. I'd like stereo subs, but I just don't have room for it.

Val · « **Reply #4 on:** 4 Aug 2003, 04:19 pm »

I agree eith doug s. about using subwoofers with a high-quality crossover, the Marchand being a good example, but in your case I would go with a used REL Storm III, to keep the entire system crossoverless. I recently sold almost all my components except for the REL, which I like so much I will keep for future use.

Val

cyounkman · « **Reply #5 on:** 4 Aug 2003, 06:46 pm »

At that price point, you might want to look into the MJ Acoustics line. They formerly manufactured the REL line. Their Pro 50 and Pro 100 are supposed to be great. Not sure on US pricing, but in UK they go for £300 and £600.

More info at http://www.mjacoustics.co.uk/.

Canadian mag UHF also reviewed some Mirage subs with the De Capos and seemed pretty happy with the combination.

doug s. · « **Reply #6 on:** 4 Aug 2003, 07:09 pm »

if i couldn't do a pair of passive subs w/outboard amplification, i'd likely do w/o... unless i could run one in the near-field, centered between the speakers. or, if i had to have the de capos', i would do something like this:

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?spkrfull&1064883939

doug s.

cyounkman · « **Reply #7 on:** 4 Aug 2003, 11:05 pm »

Nice finish! Yes, the Supremas were supposed to be pretty formidable--still no crossover on the mid driver, with another one (or two?) of the same driver in the bass cabinet working down to around 20 hz. Unfortunately, you can't 'assemble' a pair--I dont' think they ever sold the sub towers separately.

MC - if space is an issue, take a look at the VBT subs -- they're quite small. If money is the issue, try to find the fastest sub you can--you might do better with one that doesn't try to go all the way down, but performs really well in the 30-60hz range. I'm thinking smaller-driver subs (8"-10") would fit the bill. Clean power should help, as will as careful placement and calibration.

doug s. · « **Reply #8 on:** 5 Aug 2003, 12:01 pm »

chris, if i wanted more bass w/my 3a's, i'd buy the supremas above, & sell my monitors. and, imo, those aren't subs, they're woofers. i guess that's a misconception i have when folks talk about wanting subs. most of the time, they really want woofers. like in this case w/mcrespo!

if i wanted woofers to properly integrate w/my monitors, i'd get "subs" that i could set my speakers on. (like the supremas.) if i couldn't afford those, i'd get something like these:

http://www.yamahashoponline.com/product.asp?sku=2320136

that's right, folks - $500, shipping included, for a *pair*. set yer 3a's right on top of 'em. voila - full-range monitors. the ability to properly integrate w/your monitors will more than make up for using one ill-located downfiring sub, that costs a lot more, & may not really be any better. auudiojerry, who frequents this site, has had a lot of good things to say about the smaller iteration of the above sub:

http://www.yamahashoponline.com/product.asp?sku=2320135

but, why screw around - the dual-driver wersion has to be more output/less distortion...

ymmv,

doug s.

Terry · « **Reply #9 on:** 5 Aug 2003, 05:03 pm »

I have been using the Strata III with the DeCappo-i(s) for the past 4 months and it is a good combination. Sumiko actually recommended the Strata over the Storm for use with this speaker. I would definitely agree with others that you want to use a sub that does not impose a crossover in the signal path. This probably rules out the ACI Titan and, definitely, the Vandersteen. If you do get the REL, be careful not to put the Xover too high. My Strata comes in about 30 Hz. and if I raise this xover substantially (eg. 50 Hz.) the midrange is adversely effected. Do not expect the DeCappos to do full justice to large symphonic works even if a good sub. There is only so much you can get from a small monitor speaker, even one as good as the DeCappos.

doug s. · « **Reply #10 on:** 5 Aug 2003, 06:26 pm »

"...Do not expect the DeCappos to do full justice to large symphonic works even if a good sub...."
==============
with a good "sub" you will be surprised/amazed what you can do, w/large-scale works. even w/small monitor speakers. but, w/something like the rel strata, which is a woofer, not a sub, regardless of what the marketing folks call it, you are correct...

personally, i would go w/a pair of the yamaha's, i described above, over a single strata, even tho i've never heard the yamaha's, for a couple reasons.
-soundstaging will always be better w/two subs, than one, even when crossed way low.
-forward-firing subs generally work better than down-firing subs for audio.
-less than half the price.
-two subs gives more output w/less thd.
-easier to integrate two subs into a room than one - standing waves, etc, get more evenly averaged out.
-i *have* heard the strata...

ymmv,

doug s.

cyounkman · « **Reply #11 on:** 5 Aug 2003, 07:33 pm »

I cross my sub over at around 40 hz or lower to get a decent level of integration.

As far as recreating the sound of an orchestra, it's obviously not possible in the literal sense, even with a much larger speaker. Maybe a better way to think of it is the 'window into the concert hall' approach a la Quad. (i.e, the speaker system isn't trying to reproduce the entire acoustic output of an orchestra (!) in your living room, or transport the instruments there; rather it attempts to recreate the particular sound field that you would hear in a good seat in the hall. )

Frankly, I think the latter approach is the only way it's possible, unless your budget is well into the 6 figures, so it seems a decent compromise given that the De Capo is such a low price point anyway. So extending the response of that soundfield into the bottom octave, even without endless weight and power, seems in order.

Terry · « **Reply #12 on:** 5 Aug 2003, 11:39 pm »

Doug,

I get a flat in-room frequency response with the DeCappo/Strata combo from 20 Hz. to well beyond my hearing range. And I have heard two subs in my system (double Vandersteens) and I would agree that two subs energize the room better. A single Strata is still preferable, IMHO, as it eliminates the xover from the signal path- two Strata would be better still but that's double the money

. Nevertheless, regardless of the subwoofer system you use with the DeCappos, it will never equal a large, full range speaker system (like the Revel Studios, Coincident Total Eclipse, Avalon Ascent etc., etc.). They come close, and for much less money, but there are limits to what you can extract from a small box speaker. Incidentally, if this sounds like I am less enchanted with the DeCappos than I once was, this is definitely not the case.

doug s. · « **Reply #13 on:** 6 Aug 2003, 11:36 am »

hi terry,

w/active subs, i agree it's wise to keep the crossover electronics away from your monitors. which is why i use a passive sub!

the electronics of a high-quality outboard x-over will be completely transparent to the monitor, which will see the same signal from the same amp, only w/o those last few hz... while i agree w/chris that ya can't really *ever* duplicate a full-scale concert in your home, i also *know* that ya *can* duplicate a large full-range speaker system w/monitors & subs.

in any event, i am glad you have achieved nice results w/yer set-up - that's what's most important, after all...

thinking of full-range sound w/monitors reminds me, mcrespo71, vmps also makes one model of passive sub that can double as monitor stands. from their website:

DEDICATED SUBWOOFER

Low Frequency cutoff: 24 Hz (-3dB with Megawoofer option)

Sensitivity: 90 dBSPL/1W/1m

Woofers: one active 12” polypropylene cone w/butyl surround, 40oz magnet, 200W voicecoil (standard version); OR active 12” Woven Carbon Fiber w/natural rubber surround, 80oz magnet, 300W voicecoil (Megawoofer version); PLUS slot-loaded 12” passive radiator with user-adjustable bass damping

Crossover: 90Hz at 6 dB/oct with passive xover installed

Power Requirements: 20W rms min, 200/300W rms max

Impedance: 8 Ohms

Dimensions (HxWxD): 27x14.5x16.5”

Weight: 85 lbs.

Cabinet and Finishes: genuine oak veneer, lite or dark with black grill; or satin black over oak; 3/4”MDF construction throughout with hardwood corners full length

PRICING as of 2/02:

DEDICATED SUBWOOFER: $459 assembled (standard) $529 assembled (with Megawoofer); Passive Crossover $45; kit versions $389(standard) or $459(w/Megawoofer) including shipping.
============================
don't let their pricing scare ya - dealers are competitive... ;~) personally, i'd recommend getting the megawoofer, and also soundcoat. i'd forgo the passive x-over for an active unit...

regards,

doug s.

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #14 on:** 7 Aug 2003, 02:08 am »

Thanks for all the great suggestions! I guess I never expected the De Capo I's to reproduce a full symphony like Avery Fisher Hall and I agree with Chris about the speaker system attempting to bring the soundfield of the orchestra into your living room. I want to extend the De Capo I's sound field down deeper. After hearing 2 REL Stentors coupled with my father's Quad ESL 988s and Magnepan 3.6's, I could not listen without the subs on in his system. Not only did it nourish sound the sound, it also helped the soundstage. The De Capo I's have a similar quick, taut sound like the Quads in the bass, but I know I need a sub.

Passive subs would require me to buy a seperate amplifier, no? I've listened to REL's on numerous occasions now and I think it would work well with the De Capo I's. I don't have the room for two subwoofers and I'm still intrigued by the ACI's, though I'd have to buy my own speaker cable and use some adaptor to bypass the X-over on these. I guess the REL approach gives you that out of the box. Terry- why did Sumiko suggest the Strata 3 over the Storm 3? Just curious.

Terry · « **Reply #15 on:** 7 Aug 2003, 12:12 pm »

I explained my room set-up and the basic design of the DeCappos (small ported monitor) to the Sumiko rep and he just thought the Strata would be better. The Storm is a ported design, the Strata a sealed enclosure, and I believe this was the main reason for his recommending the Strata.

doug s. · « **Reply #16 on:** 7 Aug 2003, 12:59 pm »

mcrespo, yes, a passive sub requires an active electronic x-over, & a separate amp, for best results. w/a pair of subs used as stands, like the powered yamaha's, or the passive vmps', extra room isn't an issue!

(or place the subs directly to the outside of the stand-mount monitors, for minimum intrusion, if not used as stands.) this placement also gives best soundstaging; since yure not looking for ultimate extension/slam, which could be achieved by corner/wall placement, etc., this would likely work best for you anyway. and, w/judicial shopping, a pair of the vmps', an outboard x-over, & amp still won't cost more than one rel strata.

i know, outboard x-over, extra amp, etc, sounds intimidating to set up & properly integrate, but it gives long-term ease & flexibility to adjust to different speakers, rooms, etc...

regards,

doug s.

JLM · « **Reply #17 on:** 10 Aug 2003, 11:17 am »

The biggest advantage of using a sub (or subs) is in taking some of the bass load off the (now) midrange driver.

One of the biggest disadvantages of using a sub (or subs) is the tendency of overloading the room with bass energy (too much bass, induced rattling of all sorts of unexpected objects, and sympathetic vibrations).

As hinted at above, what most folks really want is a woofer, not a subwoofer for reproduction of music in the home. A 30 Hz cutoff is fine for nearly all musical forms and avoids overload issues. It's tempting to overdue the sub thing, especially when first brought in, but having it in the system at relatively low settings still helps the midrange.

The Yamaha 305 has been recommended by users on the web and don't cost much more than decent stands. For the limited use a sub needs to provide and should be providing, the 305s would seem to be fit your bill nicely.

Jonathan · « **Reply #18 on:** 11 Aug 2003, 09:05 pm »

Hello JLM,

A quick search online tells me that the Yamaha 305 is discontinued. Do you know of any place that stills sells them?

Thanks,

Jon

doug s. · « **Reply #19 on:** 18 Aug 2003, 07:02 am »

jon, check the links in my post earlier in this thread... 305's for $250 each, shipping included...

doug s.